Clean break hip and clavicle/collarbone, both with internal fixation, treating with PEMF

[DIG]

Hi @Bob and everyone,

Hope you are doing great during these interesting time (you pick the reason, politics or health ).

I’d love to get you feedback on my situation and options.

On Nov 10th, 2020 I had a moto fall in the backroads (self inflicted ). I suffered a clean break of the neck (just below the femoral head) of my hip and a 3 piece broken collarbone for good measure. I’ve had internal fixation for both bone breaks, on Nov 12th and Nov 17th, for the hip and clavicle respectively.

The big question I have is for how long per day should I treat these with PEMF? Secondary questions are what intensity and plausible optimal program on the M1.

Here’s what I’ve been doing so far since the surgeries:

• using stacked coils on my hip, positioned on the front part of the hip right over the broken neck (closest proximity to break as per surgeon feedback)
• using the Omni-8 with 5 minute pause program on my M1 at intensity 15
• I have it on at an average of 16-20 hours per day (plugged in at night for sleep and on battery during the day)
• for the clavicle, I do similar as above with 2 exceptions; using quad coil for greater treatment area and intensity of 10ish

Having read up a bit on the rabbit study and other studies, treatment times for those have been for 30 to 60 minutes per day. More questions:

• In my case, is my treatment duration too much?
• Could too much of a good thing be a bad thing here?
• For healing bones, is there such a thing as too much from your experience/knowledge?
• Do you have any data/reference on using PEMF on either of these injuries?
• Do you have any other information, feedback, papers or other that my be a use to me?

In case you are interested, I’d be happy to talk further about my situation and treatment as well as provide imaging once I can get my hands on them. Heck, we could even do an interview on your channel if that’s of value for you and followers.

I look forward to hearing from you and a very speedy recovery thanks to research and findings that you have made on PEMF! Keep up the awesomeness

Best regards,
DIG

P.S. Full disclosure on devices used:
I have the following equipment: M1 with single coil pair and quad coil, as well as the MiraMate Mini Magic with single and quad coil pairs

[Bob]

DIG,
Very sorry to hear that you sustained such injuries. I would say overall that you are doing the best things already, so far as I know. Use the devices for as long as you can, every day.

This is an example why it is necessary to understand how science is conducted before trying to interpret a scientific paper:

• when applying treatments to an animal in a laboratory, it is sometimes necessary to restrain the animal. This is true for some approaches to PEMF treatment, for example. But laboratory animal use guidelines limit the amount of time you can restrict an animal in any given day. Therefore, what scientific papers often report is this:
• Number of allowable hours a treatment could be given to a constrained rat.
  which obviously has nothing to do with:
• Optimal time duration for voluntary use by a human.

So, I always advise: do not think that an experimental protocol that is reported in one scientific paper is “optimal” for any clinical application.
Nonetheless, people fail to understand this, so they end up constraining themselves in many unnecessary ways.

My opinion: use your low-power PEMF systems as much as you can, as long as you can, every day. From the clinical reports that I have seen, this should result in healing at a rate 2x to 3x faster than you would expect without PEMF.

[DIG]

@Bob Thanks for the prompt reply and feedback! It’s great to hear that some Engineers think alike

I sure wish that the more in medical community were to be remotely interested in PEMF. I spoke with 3-4 ortho surgeons (from junior to senior staff) and told them I’d be treating myself with PEMF, and I got no time of day from them; from oblivion of what I was talking about to familiar, but, not drinking the Kool-Aid. A nurse was more interested as she had used it before

With regards to the studies rules and regulations, the things that are meant protect often end up hindering and shackling the hands of progress and freedoms.

I will keep pushing and challenging my ortho surgeon for additional/extra imaging and visits so that I don’t fall into the masses empirical data and conservative time lines that they operate from. I don’t wish to push too hard or too early for weight bearing, but, I’m not one to site around and wait to follow the beaten path.

Do you have any recommendations of what test(s) could help me to confirm the rate of healing of bone? I was told that only X-ray imaging are used. Bone density testing, MRI and ultrasound were all deemed to be inferieur to X-ray. And X-ray is used sparingly to reduce my ability to “glow”

Thank you again and have an amazing day!

Denis (aka DIG)

[Bob]

DIG,

Surgeons will, by their nature, tend to be conservative when confronted with new technologies unless they emerge from a very narrow range of “respectable” sources. I have many friends in the orthopedic research community, and many who are surgeons. Most try to cheerfully discount anything I tell them about PEMF. But a few are concerned that widespread use of PEMF would reduce their business. I think that much is true. One of my best friends from college, now a spine surgeon, is not willing to even discuss PEMF for this reason.

---

Additional information and opinions:

Regarding the use of “too much” PEMF, it really depends on the type of PEMF. For high-powered PEMF systems, it is probably wise to minimize exposure to the extent possible, because they radiate a great deal of excess energy.

But low power PEMF systems** do not work the same way. They do not flood the tissues with excess energy. It is my scientific belief that the mechanism is “permissive”, not forceful. Giving extra exposure would essentially have no additional effect, since nothing is being forced to happen in the first place. The signal simply releases the full regenerative capacity of cells and tissues. Extra signal would not have extra effects once the full potential has been released.

And in my experience, continuous use of PEMF allows continuous maintenance of full regenerative potential, probably by minimizing pathologic inflammation. Brief periods of discontinued use of PEMF do seem to be of some benefit. Most biological systems need to take periodic breaks. This is what the 5-minute rest period is designed to do.

** see next reply for my definition of low-power PEMF.

[Bob]

** By “low-power PEMF”, I mean any system technically similar to my current designs for ICES-PEMF. This includes a number of pirated systems on the market. These are usually pirated versions of earlier technologies that I have developed. But I think the earlier versions still work pretty well, so they should be about the same as my most recent systems.

A lot of people who own these pirated systems end up becoming our customers once they see how well the technology can work, and they discover the source, so I do hear a lot about these pirated devices.

The one you mention in your earlier post (MiraMat Mini) is a direct copy of one of my earlier devices, as explained by a high-level person who left their company, at the post below. This is one of about 6 different pirated clones of my earlier technology. While I am flattered by their descriptions of my ICES-PEMF technology (“magic”), I can not condone their misrepresentations of it as something mysterious, or any of their other fraudulent marketing claims. But even the pirated versions appear to work, based on what I am hearing, so if you have one I would think you will find it helpful:

Facebook Groups

This has become a private group, so, in case you can not access the link, here is a series of screen shots of their disclosure of the piracy of the earlier version of the ICES-PEMF technology. It is kind of interesting:

When they pirated my original designs, they made a number of mistakes, mostly to reduce the cost by substituting cheaper components. But overall these cheaper devices seem to work, as far as I can tell. And I would rather have people recover from their injuries using a less-expensive copy, than suffer needlessly.

[Relgie]

A brief addition to the excellent and useful responses you have from Dr. Dennis: I began using the M1 device in January 2020 to treat a very problematic, crippling case of left knee arthrofibrosis secondary to a rock climbing accident and subsequent meniscus repair surgery. I also applied the PEMF via M1 (and later C4 once I determined it was worth the expense) around the clock every day. I cannot endorse it as a miracle cure by any stretch, but it clearly and dramatically reduced the severe and disabling inflammation so typical of arthrofibrosis. My main comment for you is on the dose—I could not tolerate an intensity over 12 (Omni 8 waveform). The side effects of too high a dose for me were twitching of the entire leg and even sharp pain under some coils, both of which immediately stopped on reduction of the intensity. I thought it might help to tell you what to watch for.

Incidentally, I first heard of PEMF when my nephew’s surgeon insisted he use it for a complicated fracture of the forearm, although, of course, she recommended an FDA approved device with dosage limited by whatever was approved by the FDA. Nevertheless, my nephew did seem to benefit and this led me to my own research and experience with some charlatan devices before I ran across the body of work by Dr. Dennis for which I am extremely grateful. My condition (arthrofibrosis) can be extremely disabling and joint replacement surgery is contraindicated for arthrofibrosis. In fact, arthrofibrosis is often a side effect of any orthopedic surgery, in my case a menisectomy. Despite the contraindication, many arthrofibrosis patients do have surgery after surgery out of desperation—sometimes 5, 6, or even 7 excruciating surgeries aimed at removing scar tissue (fibrosis) with no benefit so it is astonishing that I have had so much benefit from PEMF. I have tried to tell other arthrofibrosis patients some of whom are suffering terribly about PEMF but, of course, their surgeons just want to keep repeating the ineffective treatments. Too bad.

[DIG]

I’m saddened to learn and get confirmation of the pirated hardware I have acquired
I suspected it could have been a reverse engineering job, but, was lured by the low price and curiosity of effectiveness. I wish I could go back in time and invest my money in the C4.

I offer you my apology for contributing to the problem of copying and unlawful business practices.

On the flip side, I promote your research and micro-pulse devices to everyone that I talk about PEMF!

You are a great soul to take the high road for the greater good!

Denis

[DIG]

@Relgie thank you for your reply and very useful and promising additional information! I will certainly stay the course of treatment. I’m sorry to learn of you injury.

On the topic of intensity, I’m able to attain a level 15 with stacked single rings on my hip with no discomfort. I sometimes do feel a very slight “tingle”, but, by no means discomfort. That said, with stacked quad coil on my clavicle, I do feel some discomfort on the high setting, so I reduced to medium and sometimes low (on MiniMagic) to not “over do it”. When I apply it to the outer hip area (head of screws and outer plate), stacked coils on 15 or high is a bit much, but, non-stacked coils is fine. I suspect it is due to the density and amount of “meat” compared to the shoulder area.

I appreciate your experience, feedback and caution wrt arthrofibrosis and chasing relief and solutions in the wrong direction! “When all one has is a hammer, everything looks like a nail” comes to mind wrt to surgeons and the medical community conservative and somewhat dated philosophies.

I appreciate your contribution!

Denis

[Relgie]

Very true Denis, best of luck. It sounds like you are doing a great job listening to your body so I’m sure you will be well. Peace out.

[Bob]

Hi DIG,
No need to apologize, but I really appreciate the sentiment, thanks. I think most of the pirated devices work reasonably well (secretly, I do not make any attempt to conceal the technology, so it is easy to pirate**). My ultimate objective is to make this technology as inexpensive, safe, and widely available as possible. To the extent that widespread technology theft helps to expand general awareness, reduce suffering, and reduce price to the consumer, I view that aspect of piracy favorably.

**Legal note: While I encourage healthy competition in the open and fair market, I do not condone the piracy of any technology, and I retain the right to take legal action against those who use illegal copies of ICES®-PEMF technology, especially those who make fraudulent claims or those who price-gouge or otherwise abuse consumers. I retain this right, at my discretion, to take legal action, or not, as I see fit in the best interest of society in general, and those who suffer needlessly in particular - RG Dennis, PhD)

[Bob]

Relgie,
This is very inspiring and helpful, thanks. I understand (from personal experience) that joint injuries take a long time to heal, if ever. But I am glad to know that you are experiencing some real relief.
thanks

[DIG]

Additional very useful and informative topic information can be found in this post.

[inga]

Wow, David, thank you for the information that the MiraMate MiniMagic is a pirated version of your earlier design, as I suspected!

I also appreciate that you still write this, rather than trashing it:

@Bob

When they pirated my original designs, they made a number of mistakes, mostly to reduce the cost by substituting cheaper components. But overall these cheaper devices seem to work, as far as I can tell. And I would rather have people recover from their injuries using a less-expensive copy, than suffer needlessly.

I intend to purchase another set from you and to recommend the same to my son’s father-in-law who suffers from Parkinson’s Disease. (Some studies indicate that PEMF may help Parkinson’s)

We also have the MiraMate “Big Magic” - a small mat - and I’d love to see you offer your own version.

The good thing is that if I had not found Miramate, I might not have found your devices either!

[Bob]

When they pirated our technology, they assumed they could just hook it to a larger mat (which everyone wants) and it would work (it really doesn’t work well).

Gee whiz, why didn’t I think of that

It’s quite technically challenging to design a larger PEMF system that works properly and is affordable. I’m working on it…

[Steve_Labo]

Question re DELAYED UNION fractures in metatarsal bones.

Hi Dr. Denis, after acquiring a QRS and then a high powered Pulse Center machine, I learned about your portable PEMF devices from Dr. pawluk. I first bought the original unit, then the A9b and later the C5. I have not used the other devices after getting the micro-pulse units.

So when I slipped on stairs and landed on the lateral side of the left foot, I began PEMF treatment shortly after. That was December 31, 2021. I also had a plastic walking boot on hand and used it right away.

I then had x-rays in Canada where I was visiting for the holidays. Result: no fractures seen, rest and protect foot was the advice. When returning to Portland Oregon January 21, I went to Rebound Orthopedic, a large local clinic with many surgeons and locations. More X-rays and told I could remove the walking boot, walk in supporting shoes and exercise to tolerance.

Swelling and pain continued until a month later I had an MRI. Advice the same:: walk in supportive footwear. I ended up back in the walking boot and got a second opinion with more X-rays. This time I was told I had five fractures. …About 10 weeks after the injury I finally was told I had five fractures.

Metatarsals 2,3,4 and two on the 5th metatarsal bone. I’m a 61 year old male with idiopathic osteoporosis. Normal thyroid function and testosterone levels. (‘Idiots’ don’t know why I have osteoporosis).

I was prescribed an Exogen FDA approved ultrasound device and told to use it 20 minutes twice daily. The machine arrived yesterday April 7, 2022.

Meanwhile, the Micro-Pulse A9b has done a great job keeping down swelling and pain but apparently has not done much for bone healing. Granted I was not walking in the protective boot most of this time.

I’ve been back in the boot coming up on a month now and the A9b works well with the boot for Tx all day long. At night i haven’t used it as it seems to aggravate my sleep. Omni 8 program also aggravates at any intensity so A9b works better for me. However, I’m curious about single frequency entrainment but not sure where to start.

That’s one question. The second question - I have no idea if I should continue using micro-pulse now that I started using the Exogen ultrasound device 20 minuses twice daily. This is my real question. I don’t want the different inputs (PEMF / ultrasound) to muddle things up at the fracture sites in a counter productive way). I have a lack of knowledge in this area. Maybe they would work synergistically- or maybe it would be counter productive?

Any opinions are gratefully appreciated.

Thank you
Steve Labo

[Steve_Labo]

Sorry I posted in wrong section by mistake. Will repost under the nonunion fracture topic. Steve

[Bob]

OK, no worries, I responded to your post there.

[fhcpc10]

Thank you for your post. I am just about to purchase the Miramate magic mini. Google its reviews before I placed my order, then find your post. Without your post, I would not know the original device. Now I know what I should get.
Speaking of magic big, I am wondering where they “get” the idea since dr Dennis doesn’t have a mat version. So does it work well?

[Bob]

Everyone everywhere insists they want a “whole body” PEMF system, and these guys will do anything to mislead people just to get a sale. In this case they just hook up their pirated version of our model A9 to a mat of some unknown specs and make claims about its function that are not based in reality. If doing it that way were that easy, I would have done that a decade ago. But there are a lot of technical details that need to be considered when designing a system, they did not do this, they just copied, cut, and pasted different things that they really do not understand, used the cheapest components, and so there is no way to tell whether or not it will work for anyone. But they are cheap, so people buy them. Maybe they help some people.

[fhcpc10]

I know they recently launch a new bigger mat. which claims to be more powerful (1000+ gauss), plus (this is the interesting part that caught my attention about miramate at first) the ability to import any sound ino their device and it will convert it to the wave for you. that means you have unlimited programs to choose. From neck pain to depression to face rejuvenation. I actually notice this company from an asian YTer talking about this feature.
Now, after knowing the story behind, i am wondering if this claim is just a lie (or actually it is working, they just “get” it from somewhere else)