I love infrared.
I found that a few years ago. I had a psoriasis flare up which wouldn’t go away for months on my hands and it was so itchy that I was going crazy. I used a therapy grade infrared bulb - it wasn’t LED - so it was about $20 on Amazon, but it costs more on the electric bill end.
I had relief after the first session. It wasn’t gone at that point, but it no longer itched the same way. It started disappearing within 5 sessions. Never came back.
I love it.
Thanks @Bob for the ideas and the link to an IR device that doesn’t cost $500! Sorry to go missing, but I’ve been a bit behind on other things.
Has the impressive combination of ICES + IR continued to impress?
I realised that some time ago I did try an extended trial of red light+laser IR for my joints without much benefit. Out of curiosity – and knowing you might be speculating – do you think the combination gives some synergistic benefit even if either alone isn’t obviously effective?
I do think the combination of PEMF + IR works synergistically. By itself, IR does not do much for me. Together, they seem to be somewhat better than PEMF alone.
I know this is the arthritis topic but your talk of combo therapy (IR and PEMF) made me think of this
It would be interesting to see what an IR/PEMF combo would do for all sorts of pain.
That is an excellent point, thanks. I try to keep focused on the PEMF aspect of the technology mainly because I think that needs very close attention, but my opinion is that PEMF is actually one of the best adjunctive therapies available. This is one reason why the ICES-PEMF technology is designed the way it is: to use it in combination with other technologies, such as laser, LLLT, stem cells, etc. This is one reason why, for example, I made the coils thin, flexible, and hollow: so you could put things (such as light) through the center of the coils.
I have used ICES-PEMF along with diode light with good results. And I did an extensive survey of clinicians last year who use ICES-PEMF. About 2/3 of those who have tried it find positive benefits of combining technologies, some very significant, when using ICES-PEMF with any other modality. This was a very wide range of things, from light, to nutrition, to acupuncture, to surgery. So, in my opinion, there is a lot of potential for creative and valuable combined uses of these technologies. Getting formal studies on this will be next to impossible unfortunately, because every time you add a factor (PEMF + something), you double the complexity and cost of the study.
Has anyone used ICES for inflammation and arthritis in finger joints? Which model is best for this? Thank you! Lisa
I have, and several dozen others have reported this type of use to me over the years. It seems to work pretty well but can take a week or longer to have an effect, and coil placement is very important.
Counter-intuitively, it does NOT work so well when the rings are worn around the fingers or thumb. What seems to work best is sandwiching the rings above and below the joint being treated.
Thanks, Bob. Would the A9 work well for this? I have considered using PEMF for my insomnia, as well, but the finger joints are just awful, so that’s the primary concern.
I think the A9 would work as well as any other system. That is what I have primarily used, and what most people have tried that reported to me that it was helpful for them. If it works for you, or not, it would be helpful if you would update us on the forum.
Thank you. I am planning to purchase one within next couple of weeks, I hope. I ran across some studies about PEMF helping the bone grow around dental implants. I just had to have a cracked molar pulled, so this is very encouraging to see, also.
I experienced mystery hand pain dissapearing when broken or loose infected molars were pulled. I just had a failed ceramic implant removed and my mystery shoulder pain resolved…so many problems and ailments caused by problems in the mouth. I tried to save my implant with PEMF but failed. Either too late or I am in the small minority that PEMF does not work for…
how long did you use pemf on your mouth per session? how frequently did you have each session? what period of time did you apply pemf and how consistently?
I used for 5 or 6 weeks everyday 4 to 8 hours on my cheek stacked coiks over my back molars. Used omni 8 mostly, low shumans and a little alpha and delta waves. My acute sense of smell returned and tissue inside my nose got a little bloody so maybe I over treated.
wow never heard of bloody nose from too much pemf there… plus as i understand pemf… shouldn’t cause any kind of trauma…esp a low powered device like m1, etc
Hi Bob, what have you found regarding comparisons of PEMF therapy to LLLT (ex. Bioflex, Thor)? On the topic of joints, I recently found a 3 yr old video regarding knee joint traction and LLLT as a combined treatment to regenerate cartilage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCqJNKS-v8E). Basically, it’s knee traction. It claims improvements after 6 weeks. After a quick google, it seems like LLLT and PEMF have similar effects.
I’ve had traction for Degenerative DIsc Disease before but I couldn’t really say that it was what help me the most. I also found that hanging on a pull up bar is just as good for most of my joints (discs/wrists/elbows/shoulders).
Have you had traction for your back/spine and PEMF?
Well, its hard to compare the two. My opinion, it is like asking which is better: good diet or exercise. The right answer is probably BOTH.
I asked 147 clinicians questions like this a few years ago at an ACIM conference. Basically, most of them who had tried both said they got a better outcome when they were used together. On the other hand, most clinicians who had an expensive system (one or the other) but not both, said that their technology was superior to the other.
As we would expect, clinicians are biased toward the things that make them the most money, or, secondarily, the Big Items they have spent a lot of money on.
But digging as deeply as I can, I think there is something to LLLT, whereas I am quite confident there is something positive from PEMF, maybe because I have spent a lot more time studying it.
When Pawluk and his colleague went to Europe about 2012, the Germans in particular insisted (imagine your best German accent) “Forget about PEMF, the New Big Thing is LIGHT!”
This goes on and on… I helped Mercola with an 830 nm therapeutic IR system he wanted to sell a few years ago (I had already built one for myself), specifically for use with his sauna systems, but I don’t know if he ever carried it forward to market.
I have used 830-680 nm IR myself for a range of things. I have used professional systems, and systems I built for myself, I have used them alone and in combination with PEMF.
I would like to think they helped, and that I had not wasted all that time and money. But I could never really say for sure that IR light systems were helpful for me. In contrast, for me, PEMF is extremely helpful, almost immediate, and works basically every time. In summary, for me:
Light = meh… maybe. I will keep an open mind
ICES-PEMF = immediate, profound, life-changing relief from crippling pain
In my personal experience, the two do not compare. Or if they do compare, it is like an orange versus a Super Nova.
I still suspect that IR light can be helpful for some people, and they are certainly easy enough to build. But I never saw enough of a significant and repeatable improvement that I could justify selling them to anyone else. That is why I do not make IR systems.
For now, I would say marketing claims about IR light are about like they are for PEMF: caveat emptor.
Also, I think the basic science on it is very thin, especially mechanisms. It will probably take one honest person a lifetime to sort out the key details of light therapy, and my dance card is already way past full. Even at full speed, I probably couldn’t say anything definite about it until at least 2035, maybe 2040.
TRACTION: definitely helpful for me. I regularly use an inversion table. I actually have two inversion tables, both good:
I usually do some PEMF to reduce swelling, then traction, and finish with more PEMF. This makes the effects of traction last much longer (days or weeks) for me.
@patient9 I have used both ICES PEMF and LLLT extensively for the last 24 months. For joints, I find ICES PEMF to be vastly superior in providing a LASTING improvement when comparing one to the other.
The benefits of LLLT are helpful so I often use both for max effect.
Here are my thoughts as it relates to wallet spending: let’s say I have pain or joint pain. Let’s say my options are a a $700 MSRP whole body infrared 660-850nm infrared light panel (technically not laser light) and an ICES PEMF M1 at $629 MSRP, I would personally choose to buy the M1. If I could afford both, I would buy both. The increased feeling of energy from LLLT is real for me. More impactful to me is the lasting improvement or full remediation of pain and joint function that I get from using the ICES PEMF M1. I also use ICES PEMF on my dog, to make ICES-PEMF pulsed water (presumably making structured water), and to reduce the pain from a migraine headache that I occasionally get.
I haven’t been treated with LLLT/laser for a long time (3 yes) but I would agree ICES-PEMF seems to have an immediate effect and sensation. I looked around for an LLLT system but they are so much more expensive.
Hi Bob and all,
To give an update, I had a follow up MRI of my right hip and over the last three years the cartilage has maintained. I have a boney cyst in my hip that has increased in size by a very small amount. I have been using the M1 model for three years now. I don’t know if it’s possible to remodel arthritic changes, but I hope it is with continued use.
@Bob have any people reported arthritic changes being remodeled, specifically in the hip? Any suggestions? It is my hope to not only maintain but to push the arthritis back
Getting any kind of solid data or images on joint degeneration is nearly impossible. One or two people have shared some amount of information with me over the years but it has been very spotty and limited, but generally pretty positive. I do not really specialize in the area of joint injury or joint repair, so I have not been able to put a lot of resources toward that.
However, I have a pretty extensive personal experience which I am happy to share with you.
At the age of about 42, my lower spine was very badly degenerated and the universal medical consensus was that I was going to need surgery. The prognosis was extremely negative at that time. I avoided the surgery and began developing ICES-PEMF technology at that time as a portable system for use with back pain. I have used the system more or less every day since then. More recently, the medical images of my lower spine were assessed by the surgeon and by my personal physician as “indicative of normal, unremarkable degeneration of the lumbar spine as would be expected of a man of 50 years of age. No medical intervention is advised at this time.” At the time of that more recent set of images, I was 56 years old and had been treating my lower spine daily for more than a decade. Neither the surgeon nor my physician would admit to any “regeneration” (that is never supposed to happen, and people often refuse to see things that they simply can not reconcile with their world view), but the images and the recovery of function of my lower spine have been very compelling in my opinion .
My right hip was degenerating about a decade ago, but I caught it early and I started treating it aggressively every hour of the day using a prototype A9 system. The progression of the degeneration stopped pretty soon but it took several months before it started to show any signs of reversal and regeneration. Years later I have not had any more problems up until now, images of my pelvic bones and joints clearly show slight improvement of the original osteoarthrosis, and what appears to be a thickening of the joint cartilage but we were not able to reliably quantify that in the images.
My left hip started to be very dysfunctional several years ago, but I delayed using PEMF for more than a year while I was developing the most recent version of ICES-PEMF so that I could carefully measure the effects of the new system. That turned out to be a tremendous mistake, because I allowed the degeneration of my left hip to progress to the point where it was no longer recoverable.
So, based upon my own personal experience and that of several people who have told me about their use of ICES-PEMF for joint issues, I would say:
1- ICES-PEMF does seem to help reduce the rate of joint degeneration and if used persistently in some cases it also appears to promote regeneration,
2- these processes are very long-term and take months or years or longer.
3- it’s not always the most desirable outcome: full regeneration
4- this only works well if you start as early as possible, remain very persistent everyday, and are patient enough to stick with it for months or years.
5- there are no guarantees, but slowing down the degeneration in my opinion is an excellent outcome.