Flux Health Forum

Thoughts on Joints & Arthritis

Joints & Arthritis
#61

I am actually at the conference now, Mark is here too, but I will try to give a brief answer:

Mark and I have discussed brain entrainment at length, but neither one of us is an expert. So, I don’t think either of us is in a position to teach anything on it. And I do not have the background or time to try to sift through the mountains of mis-information about it circulating on the Internet.

My priority is: Solve the problem of chronic pain using PEMF.

Mark’s priority is: Develop a tool to make reliable measurements of cortex function using non-invasive somatosensory testing.

Each of these is the work of at least a full life-long career, working about double or triple the normal hours in a work week, usually for the first two or three decades at least. So, we can’t know everything about everything.

Also, what we do know about is based upon and is in the context of a much broader, comprehensive grasp of an entire scholarly field. We would view each individual scientific paper or someone’s opinion on these matters in that way, through the lens of decades of diligent study.

So, it is very difficult for either of us to enter into these discussions in a way that we feel is both accurate and helpful.

With all of that said, my general comments on brainwave entrainment are:

I agree with your assessment that some mystical, non-scientific communities have built up around this (and many other) health issues, and a lot of speculation and imaginative musings is passed off as if it were real knowledge.

I think this is mostly because there is a lack of real knowledge. When the facts are absent, people will just make stuff up. This is directly analogous to the current problem with popular information on PEMF: the science on the mechanisms of PEMF is pretty thin, so non-scientists, charlatans, and others just make stuff up.

Keep in mind: a wild guess is not at all the same as a scientific hypothesis. So wild speculation should not be viewed in the same light as real science just because “well, it could be possible”. I say this because many people who put these ideas out there will retreat to statements such as"Well, that’s my hypothesis…" if you challenge their facts or logic.

But based on what I have seen and heard about it, I would speculate that for brainwave entrainment, as for PEMF in general, individual responses are highly variable. What works well for one person may not work well for another. So if you decide to experiment with it, I would do so cautiously.

#62

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I hope your conference is going well.

Yes, I am being careful.

My interest is more from the few scientific studies that I have found.

Mostly, MIT being able to use gamma light and gamma sound to get the microglia to clean up the brain.

The fact they could use either pulsed light or pulsed sound interested me.

The alpha study for decreasing anxiety before surgery also interested me.

The alpha session I did worked so well that I feel like there is potential power there, but the science isn’t there.

Delta and theta seem to genuinely help me with sleep.

I guess that I am comfortable with using delta and theta for sleep and alpha for anxiety and gamma for turning on the immune system of the brain to have the microglia clean up the beta amyloid and tau.

How often to use them and how long to use them will be what would take experimentation.

The reason that I haven’t gone back and used the alpha, gamma or delta again, since my alpha session is that I am suspecting that the brain will be better at micromanaging all of that than I am, but that there might be times, when things are off, that using these settings can normalize things.

The thing is that not using delta or theta has affected my sleep again, so it isn’t just using the ICES, I need the delta or theta settings for sleep.

I also just read that serotonin can actually make social anxiety worse and that people with social anxiety may have higher levels of serotonin making them more aware of other people’s thoughts and feelings. The video I used for Alpha Binaural Beats said that it increased serotonin and I will be looking that up, but I would say that it would be the lowering of anxiety, not the increase in Serotonin for getting rid of social anxiety.

Now, I am just speaking aloud.

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to help us.

Have a wonderful, wonderful conference and say, “Hi” to Mark for me.

#63

HI Deb -

I think I would be your brain entrainment resource, as I am a neuropsychologist who works with brain neurofeedback and other technologies. Although – having said that – I do have some pretty strong opinions, which are just that - opinions. :wink:

Sorry - I didn’t mean to imply that you were just feeling more relaxed. I mean it in the sense of the brain “relaxing”. High levels of anxiety are associated with higher beta proportions of brain activity. Alpha increases would therefore be “slowing down” the brain’s “speed”. It might well not affect insomnia since the “tipping point” into sleep needs even slower activity.

Widespread alpha increases also acts like putting the car into neutral instead of revving the engine unnecessarily. Once in neutral, in the brain’s case, it can do some self-reorganization. And that’s likely where your changes in social anxiety came from . You might enjoy a book called Open Focus, which talks more about the effects of alpha-synchrony on the brain’s self-regulation.

My belief exactly! IMHO, entrainment is a bit like taking a pill to force a specific effect on the brain. I prefer to give brains the information + care-&-feeding to help them self-regulate.

But you are also right that sometimes they might benefit from a wee bit of help to pop them out of a self-perpetuating “rut” of habitual activity. Because we can’t know what’s best for any brain in any moment of time, though, I prefer not to use it as a primary tool.

Nor does entrainment work all the time, with everyone and not all brains respond to the same degree. Nor would one want it to, again IMHO. (Imagine the workaholic who thinks s/he just needs to keep going and tried to force their brain into high-beta when what it really needs is a good sleep.) My brain, for example, is pretty resistant to entrainment - I get very little, if any change from auditory entrainment.

To the degree that ICES and your NRF2 and other mitochondria feeding efforts give your brain more resources to do better self-regulation, all your efforts will be working together.

What specifically are you wanting to understand about BB or entrainment that I can try to help with in a post?

1 Like
#64

Wow, thank you. You have already helped me with what you have said.

I clearly had such a powerful experience with the alpha, which has been lasting. I only did the alpha binaural beats, plus alpha ICES session one time and the effects have lasted.

I have tried to stay away from treating my head since then partly because I don’t want to mess it up and partly because I don’t know if it is wise to start having a cycle of say, delta for bed, wake up and use alpha, maybe do a gamma cleaning the brain out session when I don’t sleep?

That is what I am tempted to start doing and not using the delta at bed has caused sleep problems. The delta was working and what I know is that not sleeping means that my brain is not getting cleaned out again and that probably means I need the gamma light, gamma sound, gamma ICES session to get the microglia to know that I really do want a clean brain, even if I don’t sleep all the time.

I feel like, if I start down that pathway, I might end up micromanaging my brain and I am reading the studies because I don’t want to mess up the improvement in social anxiety that I have had.

Is there a resource, where I can hear how people normally work?

I already know that when I think about treating my brain, I will never do beta and logic tells me that beta might be important for something, too, or it wouldn’t exist.

I know that I sounds so ridiculous. I don’t tend to do theta either and I don’t dream all that much with delta. I sleep so soundly that I wake up in the morning.

Having the sweet spot in alpha, I am back to not sleeping and I just know that isn’t good.

What is the ideal?

Do people wake up and go beta?

Laughing, I already know that I am going to be trying things out eventually.

Because I need to sleep again.

#65

Deb -
Is the problem falling asleep?

If so, have you tried melatonin n the 30-60 minutes before bed?

What is your “transitioning your brain to sleep” routine? :slight_smile:

I can make some more comments on entrainment, but must first meet a work deadline :writing_hand:

#66

I used Melatonin a few years ago. The problem with using it is that your body stops making any and it backfires. It becomes less effective.

Honestly, the not knowing what time it is ever is part of it. I think it is 7 at night and look at it is 2 in the morning.

But while I was using the M-1 on very low power, delta, I fell asleep at midnight every night. It was the first time in over a decade that I fell asleep before 4 in the morning. I am back to 4 in the morning.

I will try the M-1 lowest power Delta tonight and see if that works again.

#67

I was doing excellent with sleep until I lent out the M-1.

I didn’t go back to the delta after the alpha worked so well for social anxiety.

This will be a good real test. If the delta works again, I will use it and see if it helps with sleep again and if affects social anxiety negatively or not.

I was watching a video where he was showing scent studies with rosemary and lavender and rosemary improved cognition when used as a scent and when taken in small doses. Lavender calmed the mind down and lowered the scores on the cognitive tests. The double blind study on rosemary was paid for by McCormick or something like that, so it isn’t as high quality a study as if it was paid for by a neutral party, but that isn’t the part that I was looking at. I was just looking at the mechanisms.

I have some Lavender essential oil infusers, but I need to know that using it can calm me down but lower my cognitive testing. Rosemary for dinner might improve my cognitive testing, but might wake me up.

I try out the studies especially ones where it will only cost me the spices already in my spice jar.

#68

A few comments:

Maybe. There is lack of evidence that this is so, as far as I know. One researcher who uses it for bone density treatments indicated this was not so, but I can’t find any reviews that substantiate either position.

And, depending on your age, there is evidence that our natural production drops over time anyway, leading to sleep disruptions and inefficiencies (as well as the bone loss and other things :wink: ).

I’ve used it for at least 2 years (as part of a bone density program) and find it effective for sleep onset as well. When I run out and don’t get more right away, my sleep onset is fine. Not as noticeable “lights out”, but still within minutes, not hours.

When were you using the M-1 delta? At a regular time in the evening? Or just “whenever” you went to bed? It sounds like you did something regularly before midnight (i.e., a sleep routine?? :wink: )?

Might I gently suggest that not having a routine for your body to know “it’s time to sleep” might be a big element to look at?

Melatonin is not a “sleep producer”; it’s a “dark detector”. So when it gets naturally dark, melatonin levels rise, and the “side-effect” of that is getting sleepy. Without the dark, it won’t force your body into sleeping. Ideally, with or without added melatonin, you want to dim lights, stay off screens that are blasting daylight frequencies (the “blue light” you’ve probably heard about), and ideally have a bit of a routine/ritual that tells your body “it’s time”.

The problem with entrainment is that, unlike the melatonin, it is pushing your brain into a sleep rhythm, whether it’s prepped or not. Which means – like your melatonin concern – your brain isn’t learning to move into sleep reliably and consistently with its own circadian rhythms, it’s just doing what you’re making it do.

And another area of lack of research is whether sleep-by-entrainment actually creates the same brain conditions as natural sleep.

If you’re really feeling sleep-deprived and unable to do a “natural re-set” with or without melatonin as a boost in the short-term, then I recommend using the delta entrainment as a short-term “helper” while you do what you can to create the conditions for your brain to learn to get there on its own. That might look like: screens off at 10pm, lights turned down, a warm bath/shower or Something that says “relax” (like your lavender, for instance), meditation or something like it and then start the delta as an “encouragement” to make the transition. Hopefully, after awhile, all those cues (and removing the lights that tell your brain to “Stay Awake!!!”) will let your brain do it on its own.

Hope that makes sense. Just my thoughts (I warned you I have Opinions. :wink:)

2 Likes
#69

Thank you for your help.

Melatonin didn’t really work for me and, yes, it may have been after a decade of caretaking where I had the night shift and stayed up until 4 in the morning (and went to work during the day) my body and brain never shifted back.

Your saying Melatonin caused me to rewatch Dr. Greger’s foods, which increase Melatonin and eating 2 pistachios is what raises the level to a physiological dose similar to what the body normally would do. A handful of pistachios would be the amount of Melatonin as a high-dose supplement.

Tart cherries, Goji Berries, Almonds, Raspberries, Fenugreek,

Kiwis have a study. 2 Kiwis an hour before bedtime and people slept an extra hour and fell asleep earlier and more efficiently.

I do use blue blocker glasses and have tried everything under the sun except the foods over the past years since my caretaking shifts ended.

I no longer do caretaking. I do work and because I am so inefficient, I end up having to work double the length of time, which throws off dinner and that throws off sleep.

Not getting sleep throws off breakfast.

Having a brain broken in relationship to the part, which keeps track of time throws off all of it.

When my dog’s vet came to my house to examine him, he asked if he could mark his next appointment on the calendar on my wall and it turned out that it was a year and a quarter or half off.

When I had to write the date at work, I wrote the month and the year and asked my coworker what the day was and he looked at what I had written and said, “Well, you already have the year and month wrong, so I don’t think getting the day right will matter all that much.”

#70

I will try the re-set.

It did work the first time and it did last for a few weeks.

Not using the M-1 on delta did slowly get back to me being awake 4 in the morning, and a few days it was 7 in the morning, but that was mostly the end of this week.

I wanted to see if the sleep would just last, but I have tried it a few times and it lasts for a week or two, then I slide back to where I started.

I do think that my sense of time is actually better. I know that sounds crazy, but the fact that my calendar was a year and a quarter to half off and that I was wrong about the month, year and day before I went Whole Food Plant Based, I know that we are in June. I don’t really have a sense of which date it is but I am aware it is Friday and historically, I often am not aware of that. I have been getting the year right and that is pretty good. I don’t know how old I am, but I never have been good at dates or math - except that I can tutor math and get people to get almost perfect scores, but I can’t memorize things like multiplication tables.

I have never been good at knowing how old anyone is because that changes.

I have trouble memorizing faces because facial expressions change all of the time, too.

#71

Just looked and my calendar is still months off.

It is not a year off.

Just a few months.

Getting there.

#72

Hi Deb –

Ah! I’m getting it. Yes, night shifts would throw off both your circadian rhythms and your natural melatonin availability. A double whammy!

So here’s what I’m thinking…

I think you have the beginning of a program here! How about if you use the delta and diet to get back on track, then – when you’re sleeping better again – skip a night or 2 and see if it sticks. Do another couple night of delta, then skip 3 or 4 nights and re-evaluate.

THe goal would be to see how long you can go for before you can feel the effects start to fade/sleep start to be disrupted, then give yourself a booster until the good sleep is back.

Wash and repeat.

Hopefully , this could give you mostly good sleep and nudge your system back into self-regulation as best it can and/or minimizing the frequency of the brain-push if it’s not needed.

Could that make sense?

#73

LOL! Exactly.

I haven’t found anything yet that does any significant improvement for my hands and wrists. Over the past 2 weeks, I’ve tried:

  • 8 hrs with OMNI 8 at levels 10, 11, 8, 7 (on different nights, clearly :wink: )
  • 8 hrs with Schuman 4 at levels 10, 11, 8, 7
  • 8 hrs with 10 pps at levels 10, 11, 8, 7
  • 4 hrs moving between all 3 of these to mix it up even more
  • limiting it to 4 hours overnight on each of those 3 in case the stimulation was too much

I generally use the 2x2 in order to get my wrists and hands at the same time, tucked into my handy oven mitts. That means when I take my hands in and out over the night, the coils will be sometimes on top and sometimes below my hands.

The reason I’ve tried so many different parameters is because I’ve recently had quite a bit of pain in my left wrist (the relatively undamaged one) and in my fingers during the day. Kind of fretting about that as indications of more damage while I’m experimenting and looking for feedback that I’ve got a good match to begin with. I went down to 4 hours, for example, because that seemed to decrease the left wrist morning pain. Not sure if the increased pain would be from the stim or from having my hand in the same position in the mitt all night.

@Bob - did you mean alpha as the protocol or 10pps? I kind of went with the pps, but just realised you may have meant the actual protocol…?

Thank you all!

1 Like
#74

Wow, thanks Dr. Karen, I will try it!

Yes, the Delta worked pretty well back when I used it last.

Theta worked okay last night.

But Delta worked much better.

Deeper sleep.

I will try that.

I do feel like I want my brain to do its job itself as soon as it is able.

I feel like I am not smart enough to take over its job at regulating which brain waves to use at which time.

#75

@DrKaren, I was suggesting the alpha wave protocol. Try that.

Keep in mind, there is no secret protocol that works while all others do not. I think the protocol itself only changes the effectiveness, maybe, by +/- 20%, when compared to other similar protocols, for most applications.

Most importantly, keep in mind, this is not a 100% fix for everyone. About 6 - 7% of people do not respond, and we do not know why. About 93% of people do respond well, but some take longer than others: some take hours, some days, some a few weeks.

I think you have been very reasonable about the intensity setting, so maybe try something different. A few people do require higher intensity (most people do not). Consider trying a setting of 13 or 14 while you are awake, for a few hours, to see if that reduces your pain.

Also, try different coil orientations. For example, it seems obvious and convenient for some people, for example, to put the rings around their thumb if they have a thumb joint issue. But this does not seem to work well for most people. What seems to work far better is to sandwich the thumb joint between a pair of coils (bumpy sides out, away from the skin). Changing coil position this way can make a dramatic difference, especially with bone and joint issues.

Some people, myself included, have struggled for weeks or months trying to make a physically convenient coil placement work, when all along what was required was a different coil placement strategy.

1 Like
#76

@Bob Thanks for all this!

I want to be in the 93%!!! (This is no place to be a 1%er :wink: .)

I tried the alpha protocol with my oven mitts and a 2x2 array on each hand overnight and I seem to get some benefit from setting it at intensity level 5 and not wearing them any longer than 6-7 hours. (Less is more.) After that, they get stiff again.

With that arrangement, I seem to have less pain in my fingers and wrists and can manage without wearing the usual night splints I was wearing.

(Note to self: Try combining splints and ICES to see if the splints can help guide any re-growth of cartilage.)

No solution for knees yet.

1 Like
#77

excellent, I think you are on the right track. Keep experimenting, and less is indeed more most of the time IMHO.
I am finding that I am getting excellent results for my hip cartilage with ICES using deep field coils, Alpha wave, intensity set to 12, PLUS infra-red (830 nm, continuous), The best effects for me are for short sessions 5-10 minutes, done every few hours. Still experimenting, but making very good progress now

1 Like
#78

Love the notion of the combo.

For overall body inflammation, I was using a nasal IR 680 nightly x 25min, but I started noticing increased hard nasal mucus with some bloodiness, so I stopped. (Sorry if that’s TMI everyone. :wink: )

What IR device are you using, if I may ask?

I have tried the worst knee for 15 min max at alpha level 5, but it’s not lcear it helps. Not clearly worse either. :wink: .

#79

First let me state that the results for me are so remarkable, that I am reacting with pretty strong skepticism. I feel a bit irresponsible making any statements so early in my experiments, before I have verified anything to my satisfaction.

On the other hand, the combined effectiveness is quite impressive so far. Speaking strictly as a person managing their hip pain, after three days of this, I am absolutely delighted.

Now, on to the hard part. I am using a device of my own design and construction, because, so far as I know, no one makes what I think I need.

But it would be way too premature for me to specify designs or make a product for anyone. I am at the very early stages of development at this point.

But you might be able to find a device that is commercially available. Just look for something with an 830 nm wavelength.

Searching amazon, something like this would be good I think:

But there are many more devices available at 850 nm wavelength, and those might work well too (almost no difference).

I can’t guarantee anything, right now I am still experimenting.

2 Likes
#80

BTW, I would guess your negative effects (hardened nasal mucus and slight bloodiness) are probably due to the fact that IR diodes emit essentially dry heat. That could explain everything and may suggest how you might counteract it: also use some form of moisturizer that you could tolerate intra-nasally. Something with a low-molecular weight paraffin, no perfumes, and without too much alcohol-based emulsifier might work well.

1 Like