There are several bone stimulators on the market (PhysioStim, Biomet) that use PEMF.
Is Omni 8 / ICES PEMF comparable to these bone stimulators?
Itâs interesting you should ask that because I was discussing that topic with an orthopedic surgeon at a major university just a few days ago. He had tried those devices many times for his patients but never saw much benefit. Then he purchased one of our systems for a member of his family and contacted me excitedly a few weeks later to report that the results he saw were astonishing, and that he wanted to recommend our devices to his patients who qualified for one of the devices you mentioned, rather than using that old technology that does not really work.
I suppose that is about as direct a comparison as you could hope for, by a person I had never met before, who had a bias entirely against PEMF, and who had dismissed our ICES-PEMF technology until he saw the results of it first-hand.
Those are the bone stimulators that were based on technology from the 1980-1990âs.
In my opinion, comparing ICES-PEMF to a thirty-year-old technology is a lot like comparing a modern smart phone to a PC from about 1989. The differences are quite significant. So, I would not consider the devices comparable.
My opinion:
ICES-PEMF is about 5 times as effective, maybe more
Emits far less EMI
Works in about 1/10th of the rime
At far lower cost
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You canât beat @Bobâs response.
FYI, in my own experience my broken elbow healed in about 3 versus 6 weeks according to my friend who is an orthopedic surgeon.
âseeing is believingâ is replaced in this case with âtrying it is believingâ. Thatâs why there are so many high quality forum members here (in addition to @Bob who is the inventor). Just be sure you give it at least 8 hours a day (preferably more) for several weeks in this case.
And please report back your results on this forum so others can benefit from your shared experiences.
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Hi,
I wonder what wave pattern was used to get that result.
Raimond
If you mean the pulse pattern from one of our ICES-PEMF devices, generally the Omni-8 pattern is used. For orthopedic injuries is the most widely tested and used, but other patterns** seem to have very similar effects, and individual responsiveness varies; one is better for some people, a different pattern seems to be better for other people or other injuries.
**Schumann-4, Schumann-5, Alpha Wave, A9, B5/C5, Beta-1, for example
Hi Bob
How often would you recommend changing the pulse patterns? what has the feedback from users been? I am experimenting with trying to regenerate some cartilage behind my knee cap.
Thanks,
Bryan
I would change it every 2 or 3 weeks (assuming daily use)
Thanks Bob,
I was thinking that the pulse patterns are tissue specific. Say, Omni 8 are good for bone growth etc. Obviously it is more complicated than that.
You have indicated in the past that the gradient or slope of change in the pulse are more important than the wave forms. Since the pulse intensity will decrease with tissue depth , would it be the differences in tissue depth explains the differences in response? Will an increase in pulse intensity be able to eliminate the differences?
My opinion: the notion of highly-specific pulse patterns for specific tissues is mainly a PEMF marketing angle, to sell you a âsecret special frequencyâ. The tendency to market PEMF this way has trended downward for the past 5 or 6 years (maybe since I have been actively debunking this as baseless and fraudulent?). So, PEMF marketers have more recently moved away from âsecret frequenciesâ and now tend to market PEMF based on raw power (actually peak Gauss, not quite the same thing).
You are correct to note that the slope (dB/dt) scales linearly with peak magnetic flux density (Gauss), so farther from the coils you get a lower amount of both. Deeper tissues will therefore necessarily get exposure to lower dB/dt (slope), and therefore will get less stimulation. If this level drops below the minimum threshold for effective tissue stimulation with PEMF (not a fixed number, depends on individual sensitivity, injury type, and other mostly unknown factors), then you would expect to see the effectiveness of the PEMF drop off sharply at that tissue depth.
What is the intensity lost per cm, say for M1? How can one increase the intensity beyond the settings of the machine? Stacking the coils up on top of each other or sandwiching the tissue between two coils may help to maintain intensity in deeper tissues?
Answers to these questions may improve treatment results.
Intensity lost is a complex 3-dimensional curve. Basically intensity drops off as 1/x^3 for on-axis distance from the coils, and ~ 1/x^4 off axis, and this is only for the simplest possible geometric configurations of magnetic solenoid coils.
Increasing the settings beyond the settings of the device will destroy the device and void the warranty.
Stacking coils or using them on opposite sides as I have described many times elsewhere will increase the effective depth of penetration of the field.
Generally, these questions are all pointed in the direction of more power
The reality is:
Experiment, data, testing and science in general indicate that above a certain threshold more intensity does not increase biological effectiveness (see any of my scientific papers on this topic)
Nonetheless, some people want more power. In this case, you should probably consider purchasing one of the âwhole bodyâ clinical systems on the market.
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Just wanted to share my experience in case it might help someone else to recover. My 6-month-old nonunion distal fibula fracture healed after using the M1 PEMF machine, however, this was not the only healing modality I utilized. I also used the physician prescribed ultrasound bone stimulation healing device (Exogen) and started thyroid replacement hormone prescription medication (T3 only, low dose). Because of the multiple variables, it is not possible to say which treatment provided the most healing and I wish I could say that I noticed the PEMF as most effective, but in my mind, it was the thyroid replacement hormone that did the trick. I say this because the x-rays showed only about a 15% healing 5 weeks after starting the PEMF and 4 weeks after starting the ultrasound treatment. The healing showed on the next x-ray, 4 weeks later, jumped to about 75% healed after adding thyroid replacement 4 weeks prior. Hypothyroidism can be a contributing factor of nonunion or delayed fractures. Maybe all 3 of these treatments together gave me the quick response. All I know, is that after 1 year of immobility, I am very grateful to be able to walk unassisted and with minimal pain.
I used the M1 Omni 8 setting med intensity for 1 to 6 hours per day - probably averaged 2 to 3 hours per day. Ultrasound only required 20 minutes once per day - I used it 2 to 3 times per day for first 4 weeks and then only 1 to 2 times per day after.
Timeline summary â M1 PEMF started 10/31/20 â ultrasound started 11/6/20. X-ray 12/4/20 showed 15% healed. Added thyroid T3 RX 12/12/20. X-ray 1/8/21 showed 75% healed. Continued all 3 treatments. X-ray 2/5/21 showed 90% healed. X-ray 3/5/21 showed 99% healed.
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Thank you so much for this!!
I love that you state your âfinancial interestâ regularly and warn readers to take that into account. Such honesty won my trust!
Thanks Beth for sharing. Here is my current situation addressed to Dr Denis:
Question re DELAYED UNION fractures in metatarsal bones.
Hi Dr. Denis, after acquiring a QRS and then a high powered Pulse Center machine, I learned about your portable PEMF devices from Dr. pawluk. I first bought the original unit, then the A9b and later the C5. I have not used the other devices after getting the micro-pulse units.
So when I slipped on stairs and landed on the lateral side of the left foot, I began PEMF treatment shortly after. That was December 31, 2021. I also had a plastic walking boot on hand and used it right away.
I then had x-rays in Canada where I was visiting for the holidays. Result: no fractures seen, rest and protect foot was the advice. When returning to Portland Oregon January 21, I went to Rebound Orthopedic, a large local clinic with many surgeons and locations. More X-rays and told I could remove the walking boot, walk in supporting shoes and exercise to tolerance.
Swelling and pain continued until a month later I had an MRI. Advice the same:: walk in supportive footwear. I ended up back in the walking boot and got a second opinion with more X-rays. This time I was told I had five fractures. âŚAbout 10 weeks after the injury I finally was told I had five fractures.
Metatarsals 2,3,4 and two on the 5th metatarsal bone. Iâm a 61 year old male with idiopathic osteoporosis. Normal thyroid function and testosterone levels. (âIdiotsâ donât know why I have osteoporosis).
I was prescribed an Exogen FDA approved ultrasound device and told to use it 20 minutes twice daily. The machine arrived yesterday April 7, 2022.
Meanwhile, the Micro-Pulse A9b has done a great job keeping down swelling and pain but apparently has not done much for bone healing. Granted I was not walking in the protective boot most of this time.
Iâve been back in the boot coming up on a month now and the A9b works well with the boot for Tx all day long (12+ hours/day, lower intensities - with coils taped side-by-side on top of sock inside boot). At night I havenât used it as it seems to aggravate my sleep. Omni 8 program also aggravates at any intensity so A9b works better for me.
However, Iâm curious about single frequency entrainment but not sure where to start (maybe something like previously mentioned: Schumann-4, Schumann-5, Alpha Wave, A9, B5/C5, Beta-1?) I would be limited to night time C5 so maybe I need to buy an M-1 for daytime experimentation.
Thatâs one question. The second question - I have no idea if I should continue using micro-pulse now that I started using the Exogen ultrasound device 20 minuses twice daily. This is my real question. I donât want the different inputs (PEMF / ultrasound) to muddle things up at the fracture sites in a counter productive way). I have a lack of knowledge in this area. Maybe they would work synergistically- or maybe it would be counter productive? It seems another user indicated concurrent use of Micro-Pulse Omni8, Exogen and thyroid Rx (my thyroid numbers are OK).
Any opinions are gratefully appreciated.
Steve
My personal opinions on the matter (not medical advice):
You might tolerate one of the lower frequency protocols better than Omni-8 or A9b. I would suggest you start with Alpha-Wave using an M1 or C5 if you have one of those. Or you might try using one of the patterns associated with better sleep, such as Delta or Theta; many people report better sleep when using one of these, so you might get a double benefit: accelerated fracture healing + better sleep.
Long periods of use every day (and night if possible) are best I think, as you are doing if I understand you correctly.
Ultrasonic should not interfere in any way with PEMF, at least there is no clinical indication of that happening anywhere that I know of, and based on theory there is no reason to think it should cause any problem to use both. My best guess is that they would be synergistic. I base this guess on indirect experience, without actual data.
Thanks for the prompt and detailed reply. Your personal and scientifically based opinions are well taken. It gives me something to work with. Also, related to the compatibility of ultrasound and PEMF, it seems the prior poster (BethEL) had good results using both. Steve
i wonder if your osteoporosis and whatever else may be related to that diagnosed or undiagnosed can be contributing to the delay of healing too. are you taking any supplements? anecdotal and a few studies, if you search online, suggest that silica (i take de) and boron are helpful in collagen production, mitigating (dare i say reversal of osteoporosis⌠some anecdotes have claimed increase in dexa scan) bone loss⌠also vitamin k2 helps in getting calcium out of places where it doesnât belong (ie, blood) and back into your bones⌠usually paired with d3, which has other benefits⌠oh ya⌠also consider magnesium for related bone benefits (and many many other than just bone) for supplementation.
anyway, something to spend some Google time researching and trying for yourself to measure results⌠works well with pemf. much healing to you
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Thanks for your comments and suggestions. Points well taken. One theory is my 100% Scandinavian ancestral origin where sunlight exposure is scarce which maybe eventually finds its way into the genes over many generations. I donât know about Inuit people but I suspect their traditional diets of raw whale blubber etc compensates for the lack of sun in the way of high omegas and D3 intakes which Scandinavians didnât necessarily get. Itâs interesting how people of African origin have some of the highest bone densities in the world and how say Japanese women score poorly on DEXA scans but generally donât suffer bone fractures like western women. IE they have strong and flexible bone protein matrix despite porous bone structures. DEXA doesnât tell the whole story on bone health until there is a fracture history and then there is a likely correlation. I was first diagnosed as a 42 year old male and the top endocrinologist at UCSF put me through the tests and found no reason I should have osteoporosis. Anyway Iâm not inclined to do drugs so I consulted with Susan Brown at BetterBones early on and did a lot of self study. Supplementation and diet are great but still require digestive competency for effective assimilation on the cellular level. So itâs a two pronged process - the right supplements and ensuring a healthy microbiome and stomach chemistry. Then there is stress, exercise and everything else haha. Iâm
Attaching a list of my current bone related supplementation. I think I cover most if not all
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Agee on your comment on digestive competency for effective assimilation. Do you know the state of your small intestine to ensure you are absorbing the minerals and vitamins?
Are you testing your NO level and is it staying at a very good level? Infections of most any kind can crater NO and as we age, NO production decreases. Multiple pubmed articles on important of NO on bone health/ bone density. I use Berkeley Life Beet Root capsules. Also, sleeptime mouth breathers also have low NO. I use 3M skin tape over my mouth while sleeping.
Separately, have you considered a vibration plate? This is the one I use and it has been great. https://www.vibrationtherapeutic.com/linear-vibration-plate.html
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Thanks, I didnât know about nitric oxideâs effect on BMD. I have studied and practiced the Buteyko breathing method - mostly to increase oxygen absorption. I also do cryotherapy (cold showers) and took several Wim Hof seminars although I donât really like his hyperventilation techniques. I keep my VO2 Max as high as possible using LiveO2 high intensity interval training with contrast for 15 minutes but with the fractured foot I havenât been on the exercise bike doing the O2. Iâm not a mouth breather. I have experimented with beet powder in the past. I will do it again but Iâll be testing it with Levels continuous glucose monitoring. I suspect it might spike glucose but likely itâs variable depending on the individual. Anything to maintain and build bone right? Re WBV, I first bought the Marodyne LiV when it first came out years ago https://marodyne.btt-health.com/ then four years ago I bought the Juvent and gave the Marodyne to my mother. https://www.juvent.com/health/