Flux Health Forum

Thoughts on Sleep

Sleep
#1

From Bob Dennis, owner of Micro-Pulse; I have a financial interest in the sale of PEMF devices, so please take that potential bias into account when considering my statements

Many people have asked me about using PEMF for sleep. Many, many, many people. Apparently, I am the only person who actually sleeps deeply and soundly without needing some sort of assistance. So this is a problem that is evidently widespread, but I honestly have absolutely no first-hand experience with it, and I have never studied it.

This is my perspective: I am researching and developing PEMF for use in cases of the most serious, intractable, crippling pain and physical injury. That is my focus. Chronic pain is BY FAR the largest medical need (sufferers of chronic pain outnumber all sufferers of cancer, diabetes, stroke, AIDS and heart disease, all combined), so that is what I need to focus on. I acknowledge that poor sleep is also a problem, but honestly, I don’t know anything about it. And I feel like I need to keep focused on the main issue I am committed to.

Nonetheless, many, many people ask me about sleep and PEMF. So to try to accommodate this need, I designed the model M1, which has various protocols, including brainwave entrainment patterns, so people could self-experiment and self-hack on whatever they wanted, including sleep. But that is about as far as I can take it, and if you want to use PEMF for sleep, you probably need to self-experiment to find what works for you.

Alternatively, you could buy a PEMF system that makes claims about aiding sleep. Keep in mind, these claims are usually formulated by marketers and have no scientific basis. They do this for several reasons: (1) they are desperate to make sales (2) there is a huge demand for sleep aids (3) the application “sleep aid” is a regulatory loophole because it is regulated differently than a serious medical device such as a pacemaker. Many of these loopholes are “exempt” from FDA regulation, so their marketers twist the facts a bit and misleadingly state they are “FDA cleared”. Many PEMF marketers use such loopholes to make their products appear as if they are “FDA cleared”. Another such loophole is devices used for “massage”. There are several other exempt classifications that are abused in this way.

Anyway, I steer clear of all this nonsense, and I stick to my knitting.

But I have heard some things you may want to be aware of. Here are the very few things I think I know that might be helpful:

Everyone responds differently. Some pulse patterns and intensities help some people relax, but may make others agitated.

About half the people who tell me they have tried PEMF for sleep enhancement have reported to me that they see no benefit from PEMF for their sleep.

There is no secret or “best” frequency for sleep (or any other application of PEMF). For one thing, some people tell me that Delta works best, while others insist it is Theta, while others insist it is Alpha, while yet a few others insist Omni8 works well. Some people say just turning the PEMF “OFF” works best. One overall pattern that I have seen is that higher frequencies do irritate most people when used on the head, such as Gamma and some of the pre-set orthopedic/inflammation patterns I have developed, such as Omni8, which has 100 Hz modes. There is no general agreement though, and I have stood by and watched people argue about it. Also, all brainwave entrainment patters are a range of frequencies, not one precise frequency, because the brain itself operates on ranges of frequencies that change over time.

One surprising finding relating to sleep and relaxation that many people have shared with me is that PEMF, when used on places other than the head, can greatly enhance relaxation and sleep, such as the lower back, feet, etc. I hypothesize this may be due to the fact that they are experiencing constant, low-level pain or irritation which is relieved by PEMF, and as an indirect effect, this allows them to relax and sleep better.

Aside from this, however, I really can’t say much about the use of PEMF to enhance sleep. I think it may help some people, but I don’t have any additional knowledge on the subject. So we need to rely upon input from everyone who has direct experience with the use of PEMF for sleep.

HOW TO HELP:
What we are looking for is as much information as you can share about your use of PEMF to enhance sleep, how you used PEMF specifically with or without other nthings, and the results you observed. You can upload photos and documents as well as your text. The more detail you include, the better. You can come back later, edit your text to add more details, upload images, documents and test results, add helpful links, etc. Also, don’t forget to ask questions, because this will help people to share their observations and experiences that they may have forgotten to mention.

Share what worked and how you did it, but negative results are just as important as positive results!!! If you tried something that did not work well, this experience would help other people too. People respond very differently and have different levels of sensitivity, so something may work well for others, but not for you. What we need is a lot of different observations from many different people so that we can begin to see larger patterns and formulate general guidelines about what is likely to be helpful, what is likely to be wrong, which options should be explored, and which options can be avoided.

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#2
#3

I find that Delta helps me get deep sleep which can be nice when recovering from a hard workout etc. and Theta puts me in a more dream like REM state. I will have to play around with the power settings as I’ve always defaulted to high.

I’ve also seen other PEMF devices advertised for sleep enhancement to be placed on the brachial plexes. I tried this with my M1 but did not see any noteworthy benefits.

*Note, I got the best results when placing the coils on my occipital (back side) and doing about 10-15 minutes before sleep. Too high of power for too long can cause pain/headache in the area.

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#4

I set my m1 to delta mode, intensity level 12. Some nights I will stack the coils, hit normally I use a side by side configuration. I hate to say it, but it’s almost a crutch for my sleep at this point I will also set an earthpulse at 80 percent intensity with a frequency of 3.2 hz under my mattress around the lumbar area. This configuration most definitely gets me better sleep. My question for Bob is this: could you possibly provide any resources for researching long term effects of using this approach with the m1 everynight? I’m a bit worried about detrimental health effects that I may be overlooking. I do understand that those with brain tumors tend to be in a delta state more often, but I would imagine that this is the body attempting to fight the tumor and heal itself. Any help would be appreciated.

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#5

I actually don’t know anything about sleep, sorry. My entire focus is building research tools for severe, crippling chronic pain and inflammation, which affects more people than all of cancer, heart disease, stroke, AIDS, and diabetes combined. I already have this massive problem to wrestle to the ground, and it is probably the biggest single medical/health problem in all of human history second only perhaps infectious disease which has mostly been managed by sanitation (engineering and human behavior) and to a far lesser extent to antibiotics (drugs).

So, I feel it is my responsibility to focus primarily on the use of PEMF to conquer pain and inflammation. But the tools I have developed (ICES-PEMF) seem to have wider uses, so we put this forum together so that people could group up and form their own research with like-minded people. This is the main resource we can provide: a way to connect with people with similar concerns. The other resource I provide is an affordable tool (ICES-PEMF) which could be combined with other tools/modalities. But I must leave it to other people to organize and carry out the research in areas such as sleep. I can give some opinions and advice, some scientific information, and make some of the technology tools available. But I honestly think the answer will depend upon a grass-roots movement on topics such as this to yield the best answers.

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#6

Do you use a side by side configuration or stacked?

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#7

I understand. Thank you for the forum, and your interview on SHR was incredible btw.

#8

I had insomnia for well over 10 years and had the M-1 and had gotten rid of back pain and foot and ankle pain and shoulder pain, but had never tried to use it for sleep until recently. Getting rid of pain didn’t help me with sleep at all.

The people over at Nutritionfacts.org could tell you that I would end up being up all night long watching their videos and commenting all night. I never could get to sleep before 4 in the morning. Often 5. When I took Melatonin, it seemed to work for a few weeks, but it backfired and I found out that the body stops producing Melatonin if you supplement with it. I tried other things like blue blocker glasses and things which are supposed to help change your circadian rhythm, but those backfired, too, which Dr. Greger said, “Warning, you could make it worse and have it go in the wrong direction if you do these things wrong” and I did. Suddenly, I was falling asleep at 7 in the morning.

I started using foods which increase melatonin, serotonin and tryptophan naturally and got back to falling asleep closer to 4.

Then, I realized that I hadn’t tried the M-1 for sleep and that using the wrong setting too close to sleep might make it worse.

I started using Delta setting while sleeping and the very first night, I slept from midnight until 6 in the morning straight through without shifting position. That happened the whole first week, but I was using too high a power and when I use high power for a week, I always get nerve pain, which kept me up.

I switched to low power and it really works without the side effects. I have been putting the coils under my head, partly because I don’t have to attach them. I recently got a soft enough headband to try and see what happens if I use other coil positions, but I haven’t tried it yet.

Anyway, I now have an app, which tells me that it is time for bed at midnight and what I know is that I don’t fall asleep unless I use it or Delta soundwaves either at bedtime or while I am sleeping. I haven’t used it and had it fail. I told the Nutritionfacts.org community that I found it to be “sleep on demand.”

I no longer feel desperately sleep deprived, even when I ignore the “bedtime” alarm on my cell phone and stay up longer. When I do stay up longer, it is different. Before, I would try to sleep and my brain was so wide awake that after an hour I would just not be able to stand just lying there with my eyes closed. Now, it is just that I am used to getting work done in the middle of the night and the brain gauge showed me that even though I tested lower at fatigue at 2 in the morning, I tested 100% focus and really well in other areas which are still weaker at 11 in the morning for instance.

I feel like now I just have the choice of bed time, rather than feeling helpless about sleep.

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#9

I have to correct myself because I do think that my circadian rhythms are better.
Or is that circadian rhythm is better.

I have fallen asleep before 4 in the morning without it. More than once.

The nights I don’t use it, sleep takes longer, but it is nothing like it used to be. I genuinely think it reset me to closer to a midnight sleep time. I don’t always choose to sleep then and I don’t always choose to use it. I like testing sleeping without it and I am pleased because I haven’t had the emotional frustration of “trying to fall asleep” in weeks.

#10

I don’t believe that it is just relaxation or pain relief.

I can’t prove it but I could never fall asleep before 4 in the morning and now I can even without it.

#11

Update: I wanted to add that I find that I sleep infinitely better with the fewer coils of the M1, than with any of the set-ups of the C5. I thought it was my imagination, but it is true. Too many coils or too much intensity has the opposite effect and actually disrupts my sleep.

#12

have you determined the best way to position the M1 coils and base for sleeping.

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#13

This is something I have been trying to convey to people for a long time: too much is too much. Many people are understandably convinced that more power and more area of coverage is better or faster. But this is not really true with an efficient PEMF system. Careful observations show that a localized system with a high signal-to-noise ratio can be very effective with a small fraction of the power and the size.

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#14

Yes, I find that I get oversaturated more often with the C5 and being oversaturated disrupts with my sleep and I end up turning it off and skipping a night.

I like the C5 for the deep coils for hips and brain and I like being able to treat both knees at the same time. I am trying to prevent knee and hip problems. I tweaked my knee a few weeks ago. It isn’t bothering me, but it reminded me that I do not want knee problems.

I can’t use the C5 at bedtime, unless I use the arrays and take off 2.

#15

I usually use very low intensity. Some people are more sensitive than others.

#16

I am a pretty terrible insomniac (and on and off coffee addict) but I figure out my stack. I take a few sleep supplements and use the Deltasleeper regularly and it seems to help. I find the Deltasleeper SR1 especially helpful on transcontinental flights where I want to stay away from melatonin, such as during the day time of my destination. I personally haven’t had any benefit from using the M1 Delta setting on my head, but a friend of mine did (also can’t tell if it’s placebo or real but it made him fall asleep immediately). I sleep with the ICES every night as it helps with pain and I see the most difference in pain levels when I use it overnight.

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#17

Are you still getting better sleep with your M1? You mentioned that you fell asleep earlier. Is that still the case? If so, are you able to wake earlier? Thanks!

#18

I’m still figuring out what pattern power and coil configuration will work for me. first night i used what i think i read Bob mention Schumann 4 and i fell asleep quickly. but was it just good timing, placebo, both? i don’t know bc the second night i didn’t fall asleep as quickly… maybe the usual 30mins

then the next night i woke up at 3a and tried theta setting… that didn’t help as i was up for an hour early

all times i tried were at 7 power and coils were side by side

I’ll try Delta next with side by side and see how things go

#19

As someone with sleep apnea, I noticed that using the M1 on TMS lowers my AHI events. I’ll use it at night close to sleep for 1hr at the back of my head ear level with both probes stuck together with velcro on their sides to make it look like an “8”. Smooth side goes to the skin. I’ve played around with the power level between often switching between 7,5,3. I didn’t do that routine last night and this morning I had 4 AHI events/hr. The last time I did the TMS routine, I had less than 1 AHI events/hr.

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#20

Hi @patient9, what device do you use to track AHI events when you sleep? I have a friend who asked me today for a recommendation for a AHI tracking device. Thanks!