Flux Health Forum

Thoughts on Adjunctive and Synergistic Effects

From Bob Dennis, owner of Micro-Pulse; I have a financial interest in the sale of PEMF devices, so please take that potential bias into account when considering my statements

Many people have talked to me about using PEMF along with other things, ranging from nutrition, hyperbaric oxygen, acupuncture and infra-red to stem cells, metal implants, some medications, and post-surgical recovery. I have not studied this scientifically (yet), but I have tried some of these things along with PEMF myself, and I have discussed it with many individual users, clinicians, and PEMF experts. I will be glad to share my observations and opinions.

At first I was concerned that the interactions were not well researched and I could not theoretically predict the complex interactions that PEMF might have with other things. So, in general, I cautioned people against the use of PEMF with implants and any other modalities I thought might cause a problem. But I now feel that I was being too conservative, because many people thanked me for my cautions but went ahead and combined PEMF with everything I have ever heard of (and many things that were new to me), and in no case did they ever report any problems. Quite to the contrary, people uniformly tell me, without exception, that ICES-PEMF (and I suspect all forms of PEMF) have a synergistic interaction with anything else they combined with it.

Like a positive outlook, PEMF just seems to make everything work better. So much so, that I have changed my opinion on the matter and I now believe that PEMF may be the ultimate adjunct modality for just about any useful treatment. I have heard very positive feedback, from hundreds of people, on every imaginable topic. A brief summary:

PEMF does not seem to have any negative effects when used near a metal implant, to the contrary, most people tell me it seems to make the engraftment of their implant “feel better”, sometimes they even point out that it feels more mechanically stable. Many people tell me they experience a slight tingling sensation at or near the implant for the first few days using PEMF, but it is not unpleasant and it usually goes away in a few days.

PEMF seems to accelerate the recovery from surgery, often by a factor of 2x or 3x, based on feedback from surgeons.

PEMF seems to amplify the effects of stem cells, in a way that is as if a much larger number of stem cells were used. Since stem cell concentrations are difficult to maintain at high levels, this effect may be highly useful. I hypothesize this may be due to an enhanced stem cell engraftment and growth in the area being stimulated by PEMF. It may be that the number of stem cells is not increasing, only their ability to remain where implanted and to multiply has improved. If this is the case, this would essentially be an increase in stem cell efficiency.

Naturopaths and homeopaths tell me that the things they use in combination with PEMF “just seem to work better, the way they should work.”

Based on many comments over the years, many people had combined supplements with PEMF, and I frequently hear from people that they feel this is a beneficial combination. Most often, however, it is impossible to separate the effects of PEMF from the use with diet and supplements alone because they were not considered in isolation.

PEMF seems to really improve the speed and effect of acupuncture, and stacked coils allow some practitioners to use ICES-PEMF as a form of “digital acupuncture”, without needles, just PEMF applied by a skilled practitioner as if it were acupuncture needles.

Several people, including some clinicians, have reported to me that the use of PEMF has allowed them to reduce or eliminate the need for certain medications. Several reductions of medications have been reported to me, but the main one is the need for synthetic opioids, which, in my opinion, has a correct dosage for everyone of zero. Other medications that were reported to me are quite serious and I feel unqualified even to mention these by name, but I do suggest that if you are using PEMF in any form you should talk to your clinician, have your numbers checked and your dosages adjusted accordingly. It would be a shame for PEMF to have the one adverse side effect that it causes medications to become so much more effective that people are taking too much when PEMF is employed.

People have reported to me that hyperbaric oxygen seems to be more effective when used with PEMF, so much so that I have been asked several times whether or not I could make a Micro-Pulse system specifically for use in an mHBOT chamber. I have not done this, but to the extent that some people do not want to damage their Micro-Pulse system, I do not think HBOT would be a problem so long as you keep it clean and dry while in HBOT. Keep in mind also that HBOT is an enriched oxygen environment with limited egress, so the flammability risk increases when in the chamber. Before using PEMF of any form in HBOT, I suggest you check the safety guidelines. I cannot advise you or make assurances on the fire or electrical safety of any form of PEMF in HBOT.

Several people, including many clinicians have used small portable PEMF (such as Micro-Pulse) daily in conjunction with larger clinical PEMF during visits to the clinic. They generally report to me that the long-term outcomes are better than either one alone.

Many people have told me about combining PEMF with everything imaginable, and the general trend is that it seems to have a positive, synergistic effect. I think in each case you would have to experiment, try it, and see for yourself.

HOW TO HELP:
What we are looking for is as much information as you can share about your condition, how you used PEMF, and the results you observed. You can upload photos and documents as well as your text. The more detail you include, the better. You can come back later, edit your text to add more details, upload images, documents and test results, add helpful links, etc. Also, don’t forget to ask questions, because this will help people to share their observations and experiences that they may have forgotten to mention.

Share what worked and how you did it, but negative results are just as important as positive results!!! If you tried something that did not work well, this experience would help other people too. People respond very differently and have different levels of sensitivity, so something may work well for others, but not for you. What we need is a lot of different observations from many different people so that we can begin to see larger patterns and formulate general guidelines about what is likely to be helpful, what is likely to be wrong, which options should be explored, and which options can be avoided.

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I tried to see if I got synergistic effects today by combining it with a nasal light. (I don’t have a vie light, but I had bought one on Amazon, which is very similar and has similar waves lengths)

Wow, it generated so much heat in my core. The increased circulation was palpable.

Powerful.

What coil placement/setting did you use?

I tried a few.

I am trying to increase blood flow to my brain and tried the sides of my head because I am testing so low in TOJ. When I put it on my head, I feel it radiate down both arms and to my core.

Then, I tried it over my chest, which changes the whole experience. I generally follow the nerves down from the head depending on what I am trying to accomplish.

I have used it over my stomach but I am not sure about the effect on the gut microbiome.

I also don’t know the long-term effect on the blood brain barrier, but I have seen so many cases of healing from things like depression and stroke using TMS on the brain, so I have decided to risk that. Gut microbiome, I would rather not mess up. I need to look and see if any studies have been done.

It does make the blood brain barrier more permeable, but that can be used to my advantage if I combine it with high antioxidant foods, like blueberries or green tea or amla.

I would like to know if there is any evidence or information that might be related to claims of a mfgr called Nano Vi

Here is one of their claims
“The simple answer is that we create a specific electromagnetic wave that has precisely the same wavelength as the ‘good’ (excited) ROS produces in our cells. We were not the ones to figure out how important this wavelength is in initiating cellular repair. That work was done by cell biologists, specifically scientists studying REDOX signaling.”

I am trying to figure out the validity of such a claim. They are using electromagnetic waves according to this statement to induce into a distilled water for inhalation to affect a change that is cell responsive in a positive way. It sounds to me that they are inducing water to be ordered and then misted for breathing into the lungs. Does this make sense? They have additional literature having to do with “unfolding” of cell proteins?

Thank you for any input

interesting… for now, I’ll leave my notes to return to this. this is the first I’ve heard about ros signaling. i thought it was pseudoscience they were talking up until i looked it up

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajplung.2000.279.6.L1005

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrm2256

for now i need to understand the idea of this ros signaling.

if I’m understanding this correctly, why not directly affect the “water” in the body instead of affecting water to affect cells?

it’s late and maybe I’m not understanding what they are presenting…

@Rick, FWIW, here is my scientific opinion:
These scientific papers make no claim and offer no proof supporting the claims of this PEMF manufacturer. This is just more classic PEMF fraud.

Let me give you the template for this type of fraud so you can see the pattern:

1 - Find a scientific paper with some cool and suggestive words that is too complex for the average person to read.

2 - Twist the meaning and stretch the data from the paper to suggest that there is some miraculous force (fill in the blank: resonance, quantum X, dark matter, zero-point energy, …) exerting precise control over (fill in the blank: water “structure”, metabolism, mitochondria, a certain molecule or cell structure, … whatever) by using a special frequency (fill in the blank: Schumann, a supposed molecular resonance, a special wavelength, one dude even used his birthday: September 6th = 96 Hz, as a numerologically-determined “special frequency”, etc…).

The last example is no joke: it was a PEMF “invention” using a “special secret frequency” made-up by a lawyer who decided he could make more money while spending his time surfing (the ocean) by marketing junky PEMF with such claims.

Caveat Emptor.


My professional opinion on what is scientifically supported by these papers:

1- Reactive Oxygen Species - ROS - exist (correct, this has been well-known for decades)

2- ROS are byproducts of metabolism, once thought to be just dangerous oxidative chemicals that drove cellular aging (this was the thinking decades ago).

3- ROS are also important in cell signalling (correct, this has been discovered more recently) as well as immune function, so they are not entirely destructive and bad for the body.

Also we know:

4- ROS are real physical molecules, with a certain size (this is just a known fact)

5- Electro-magnetic waves are real physical phenomena with characteristic dimensions such as wavelength.

But this research does not show that PEMF couples to some special resonance of ROS molecules and therefore modulates cell signalling.

That is sort of like dropping an apple and concluding therefore that the Earth is flat: Well, you know, gravity, straight lines, Newton was a Freemason-illuminati, …

As always, people can believe what they want to believe.

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Thank you for the reply. I wondered like the previous comment why we could not simply use PEMF to affect the water already in the body. One of things that also thru me was the information regarding protein folding? Was interested in hearing if this is something anyone else was familiar with. The mfgr mentioned PEMF but when i spoke to their “engineers” was told that they use a 1200 nm FAR frequency on the water that was then misted. Seemed strange that they were mentioning PEMF and then mentioning 1200 nanometer Far infared as the means for affecting the water that transferred the results to the human body.

Thank you for your comments

yes, that is exactly my thinking too. It is important to consider the body as a system of continuously cycling fluids that end up mixing everywhere. So, if you have an effect at one location, it will impact the whole body. It is sort of like dumping a cup of dye into a lake: eventually it will spread to the entire body of water. And in my opinion, PEMF definitely has effects on body fluids (blood, lymph, etc).

Regarding protein folding: same deal as I describe earlier…

Protein folding is a real science and it is really studied by real people, but that does not mean that you can conclude that PEMF has magical effects by modulating protein folding.

I do kind of know what I am talking about as it relates to protein folding. Thirty years ago when I was in graduate school I designed and built a Near-field Scanning Optical Microscope (NSOM) for studying protein folding in aging cells. If you believe that I am actually a real scientist, then take my word for it: they are selling you more pseudo-scientific nonsense. Once again, the basic template PEMF fraudulent marketers use is this:

1- Use cool sciency sounding words that are based on real things in science: usually a real thing (a molecule, a type of energy, whatever) plus a real process or phenomenon (resonance, quantum coupling, or in this case, protein folding)

2- Claim that their special PEMF somehow harnesses or controls these things to promote health.

You will see this in countless variations. My advice is to believe these simple truths:

1- PEMF seems to really help, but no one knows exactly why or how.

2- about 95% - 99% of what you read on the Internet regarding PEMF is just marketing fraud.

3- It would take you about 10 to 15 years of serious study to prove to yourself any one of these fraudulent claims for what it is, because that is how long it takes to really understand anything like protein folding, ROS mechanisms in signalling, etc.

Mainly, I suggest you resist the urge to let fraudulent marketers lead you around by the nose with pseudo-science until you open your wallet and buy their secret nonsense.

Of course, I could always be wrong, but then you need to prove it to me with a detailed technical analysis of several dozen or more peer reviewed papers, reliable data from a trusted source, or primary data from your own research. If you can prove it, then I will admit I was wrong and will change my opinion.

But it has to be real proof. Chasing papers and pulling down a few titles and abstracts is not convincing. It takes thousands of times more work than that to pry the truth out of the Universe.

The best thing to do regarding PEMF if you are a non-technical (non-PhD) user is to find a reputable company that sells products that many people use, preferably people you know and trust who like the products a lot and have good outcomes with them.

But chasing down every sciency term that is used in a misleading way by every blogger and marketer will take your whole life and will get you nowhere.

My 2 C

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