Flux Health Forum

Protocol for Multiple System Atrophy MSA

PEMF Basics
#1

I know of at least three people who have MSA, one of them using the M1 at my recommendation, so far with not much success. I looked up on the forum to see if anyone has any information, and just one person mentioned using ICES PEMF successfully to treat MSA. He posted a link to the video of the protocol but then when I clicked on the link, I found the video had been deleted.

I spoke to one person who is interested in getting the M1 for her husband who has MSA. He presents with the following symptoms, very similar to those of parkinson disease:

  • sensation of head feeling very heavy, vertigo
  • difficulty walking/balancing, stumbles easily
  • has trouble swallowing, will choke easily when drinking liquids
  • unclear speech
  • inability to control hand movements, handwriting weak and illegible
  • urinary incontinence
  • constipated: stools are very hard
  • limbs are very stiff
  • chronic fatigue
  • heart is racing, blood pressure drops very quickly when he tries to stand up

Would very much appreciate if anyone can tell me if they have any recommendation or have used the M1 to treat MSA? Or perhaps @Bob, you would have some suggestions?

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#2

To begin with, I am very sorry to hear about the three people you know with MSA. That is a terrible burden to carry, and unfortunately there is not much help out there.

As you will note on our forum, there are recurring patterns which are generally true for all conditions in my opinion:

1- There is no such thing as a specific pulse pattern for a specific condition. That’s just residual PEMF marketing fraud that is hard to deprogram from people’s minds.

2- Too much is too much. Unlike most medical/health devices that really don’t work, this technology really has biological effects, so cranking it up and more is better is generally not helpful. Most people respond well in the middle to low range of intensities, and many do not respond well to maximum intensity, only to find, sometimes after months of wasted time, that by simply turning it down a bit, they get much better results.

3- When working on the head/brain area the pulse pattern is a bit more important, but mainly because of potential brainwave entrainment. So, it is necessary to pick a pattern that is agreeable to the individual, but people vary, one size does not fit all.

4- The durable effects of PEMF appear to be permissive to growth and regeneration, but PEMF does not force anything to happen more quickly than would happen with normal, healthy tissue.

5- Using PEMF effectively takes time, patience, and a willingness to pay attention while subjecting oneself to trial-and-error.

6- I personally do not have any direct experience with MSA, or helping someone with MSA. I developed this technology to help people with severe, crippling chronic orthopedic pain and injury. It seems to also be helpful to a lot of other people with other concerns, but we have a lot less information about most of those conditions. And among those conditions, unfortunately, is MSA. So, any use of ICES-PEMF for MSA would be entirely experimental with extremely limited information to begin with.

Taking all of #1 - #6 together, I will make a recommendation, which is nothing more than my best guess.

  • Consider using the M1 unit.
  • Set to Alpha Wave or Beta 1
  • Set intensity to 5 or 6 initially
  • Place the coils in these positions, each for a few days, and note any effects:
    A- trans-parietally, bumps out (away from the skin) on each side of the head
    B- Side-by-side at the base of the skull
    C- Stacked, bumpy side to bumpy site, then placed at the top of the head

Start with short exposure times (10-15 minutes) to assure that it is tolerated well, then work up to longer times.

Eventually you will need to apply this for at least 6 to 8 hours per day (or night), every day.

Take note of effects, and be willing to adjust coil position and intensity from time to time to note any changes.

That would be where I would start.

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#3

1- No, I think you mentioned that before somewhere in the forum, and I did not intend to look for a specific pulse pattern to respond specifically for that condition, only to know if there were protocols that might be more suited to address the it. I realize everything is experimental and at best a guess. After reading that one entry in the forum about someone successfully treating MSA, after checking out the link, I already suspected it was just their attempt to market their service. Very disappointing to have hopes raised and then dashed, but yes, I’m fully aware there are people who will take advantage of people’s suffering and desperation.

2- So far, the person who has been using it for her husband’s MSA, has kept the intensity at 4. It has helped with his depression but not with his MSA. The M1 was set for Omni-8, but yes, we can switch to Alpha Wave or Beta 1 for intensity of 5 or 6 and see how he responds.

4/5- Like for all chronic conditions, I don’t think there is any quick fix. In any case, one thing people with these conditions have had to cultivate is a lot of patience, and of course the willingness to subject to trial-and-error.

6- Your guess is as good or better than mine. Regardless, I will continue to update on the progress of these people, hopefully, to benefit future people in this forum suffering from the same condition.

My friend who has been using the M1 on her husband for several months mentioned that while her husband did not make any significant progress, did however, make noticeable improvement with his constipation. He had always had severe constipation even before MSA, but after applying the M1 every day on his abdomen, he no longer experiences that. At least, for that, he has really benefitted from using the ICES-PEMF.

I am noticing a common feature with MSA, at least with the people I know, that they have chronic constipation and hard stools even prior to showing other symptoms. I have no medical background, but it makes me wonder if digestion and toxicity due to chronic constipation wouldn’t contribute to their condition.

For the past couple of years, my MSA friend had been reduced to sitting in a wheelchair. However, shortly after resolving his constipation, we did notice that he made slight improvements to his ability to stand up and walk on his own – though he still needs support and someone to watch that he doesn’t fall. But other than that, nothing else has changed much.

Thank you @Bob for all your suggestions. We know that there are no guarantees. We can only hope…

I will keep everyone posted.

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#4

OK, very good, I just feel that I have the responsibility to keep expectations modest when dealing with real, serious unknowns such as MSA.

If I may now indulge in pure speculation, based mostly on a hunch and a few random observations over the years, I strongly suspect the gut-brain link gives hints of itself in many places. Recently, my sister found great relief with ICES-PEMF and pre- pro-biotic treatment for her small intestine bacterial overgrowth (SIBO). She went mis-diagnosed for about 30 years, and only recently got a sensible diagnosis.

As she corrected the SIBO, she also had considerable improvements in cognition. Not too surprising. Others occasionally tell me anecdotes about their gut-brain link showing itself in less obvious ways. You mention you have seen a pattern of chronic constipation and hard stools being linked to MSA, almost as a precursor to MSA, and then you consider the digestion/toxicity relationship to MSA.

I am thinking along similar lines, and I would speculate (that means, I would test this on myself if it were me) that a good approach might be to constantly focus on treatment of the gut/abdomen area with ICES-PEMF to initially reduce inflammation and to help shift the micro-environment, then get onto a serious course of intestinal flora re-establishment with very good advice (better than I can give) on the use of pre- and pro-biotics, and related strategies.

The key strategy I think as it relates to MSA is to realize there is a link, and to continue to treat the gut even long after gut-related symptoms have subsided. Benefits to symptomatic MSA (or other chronic neuro-degenerative conditions) may trail weeks or months behind the gut-related corrections. So, I would keep at it even if you think the gut problems have been corrected.

I just have a feeling that the gut-brain link is much more potentially neuro-toxic when imbalanced than is generally appreciated, and I would initially suspect a potential gut-brain imbalance for many of these chronic, progressive, degenerative, mysterious CNS problems. I have just heard too many anecdotes linking the two systems to believe otherwise.

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#5

on the note of constipation and the build up of waste in the system, that makes me wonder if the symptom of chronic fatigue might be a secondary (or compounding effect) symptom from the waste itself… do they commonly experience headaches and brain fog as well?

just thinking out loud… since this is all experimental and not much data on use of ices on the brain, how long do they apply the coils, what configuration (stacked, etc), what location(s) on the head, gut (other studies have shown a real connection between gut and brain and that gut is like the second “brain” that affects body), frequency/protocol pattern, power level, and for what period of time for each experiment? would be helpful to document each “setup”

this is what i have been doing for myself and anyone I’m guiding/following along with for whatever info they are willing to share.

personally, i have found for head that repeatable results for the setup that has impact take about 1-2 weeks to confirm an effect. this has been the case for me and my dad since only recently experimenting on head. and yes, could be just us and or each our own set of circumstances too. i wish there were a manual that we could follow to use ices for whatever ailments we are treating. alas, we are stuck with the trial and error method for eventual/hopeful progress…

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#6

on further speculation, this seems to match what I’ve witnessed and what my mom experienced when using ices specifically on our gut areas and how we have each experienced a more restful sleep.

i personally had begun with applying stacked coils to my forehead at night and noticed reduced restlessness from 1-1.5 hours without pemf to 10-20 mins a night WITH pemf.

recently applied to my gut area and had the same reduced restlessness as i did applied to my head (amazing)!

#7

It’s just remarkable when you start to see this as a pattern.

#8

Okay, good to know I’m not alone in my belief that gastrointestinal health has cumulative impact on neurological health. The more I see these symptoms, the more I wonder…

So of the three people I know with MSA in their family I have one friend whose husband has been using the M1 every day for several months, both on his head and on his abdomen (I had suggested that for him as his constipation was very severe — he was so impacted that it became a two-hour routine for him!), but apparently not long enough as he was only using the M1 an hour of each. I have since suggested for him to gradually up his usage.

Recently, he contracted covid which almost killed him. He has since recovered, but lost tremendous weight and is still very weak. All things considered, he’s very lucky to be alive, so his wife is taking things slowly for him.

But since you confirm my suspicions about the gut-brain connection, I’m emphasizing that part of the treatment as well. TCM always looks at tonifying and detox and so that’s what we’ve been advocating for my friend as well. But yes, pre- and probiotics are definitely important for that and anything else that will help reduce inflammation. They’ve already included lots of ginger and turmeric in their diet to help with inflammation, which I think do make a difference.

He was originally misdiagnosed with PD but several months of worsening symptoms confirmed it was MSA. Initially, he was in a wheelchair, couldn’t stand up on his own, was hallucinating and had increased episodes of emotional outbursts and violence. They bought a BEMER PEMF mat — not sure if it was drugs or the PEMF or a combination but he was able to walk again, even though still shaky and not very stable. The hallucinations continue, about once or alternate days, but not the emotional outbursts and violence.

The other person I know recently became interested in ICES-PEMF after my friend shared with her her husband’s experience with resolving the constipation issue and the former then called me to find out where to get an M1. She’s decided to make the purchase, as her husband’s condition has been deteriorating.

As you say, @Bob, it’s best to address the cause rather than the symptoms. The issue with MSA is that we really don’t know what causes it, but I’m betting gastrointestinal health really plays a much bigger role than we give it credit for.

#9

I agree. I can’t quite nail down what the biological mechanism is yet for the link, but based on the frequent gut-brain correlation, there does seem to be a strong relationship. I would speculate that the gut may be driving the overall system response since it is so easy to change gut conditions compared to trying to change conditions in the brain.

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#10

For my family, ICES PEMF was the primary vehicle for learning that cognition could tremendously be improved by working on the gut. Now, there was significant dieoff of that first use of ICES PEMF for a couple hours on the gut but once that subsided after we stopped ICES PEMF, I saw a new normal that I sought to establish as an ongoing baseline by more gradually using ICES PEMF (starting with a few minutes per day). I have learned in the case of chronic disease for my family (caused by gut dysbiosis related endotoxemia, copper poisoning and mycotoxin poisoning) the detox organs can be very sluggish requiring to slowly increase usage of ICES PEMF and other ways to shift and upregulate the body’s phase 1, 2, and 2.5 detox pathways.

Here is the original post I was trying to understand I what I observed. M1 on Gut - adverse reaction then great calm/clarity??

#11

I have a lot of food intolerances that I never had as a child, and I wonder if this also isn’t linked to gut health. I have always practiced intermittent fasting as part of my martial arts regimen, and I recently got back into it after ignoring it for a few years along with the probiotics.

Interesting thing is, these years when I didn’t do the fasting or probiotics, my food intolerances got worse. My GP said that food intolerances were not uncommon the older you get, but I’m thinking that’s got to do with gut health and poor diet catching up to me. Any way, my doctor was very approving of intermittent fasting, as it has many benefits on heart health, and even for people with diabetes. I used to teach autistic children in grade school, and some studies have suggested the severity of autism could be linked to gut health too, and I remember reading some studies done to epileptic children who responded to a combination of intermittent fasting and the keto diet.

I do notice that when I do a 2-3 day fast, that I do have severe runs when coming out of the fast. My take on that is the toxins that are being eliminated. Definitely, my five senses become much more sensitive. TCM puts emphasis on diet and tongue diagnosis. During the fast, my tongue gets super coated which I interpret as toxins surfacing from my gut. But after the fast, my energy, taste, smell, and vision are all much improved and mental clarity from a 3 to 9 on a scale of 1-10. I highly recommend if you’ve never done a fast before, try a 24 hour fast and ease out with a vegan meal just to see what benefits you can experience.

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#12

Sharing what I have learned for our family: our food intolerances were directly related to the tightness (specifically, very loose) of the gut protein junctions, and zonulin was a good measure of that (used GI MAP with Zonulin test). When we removed the foods where we had intolerance (IgG mediated allergy from an IgG food sensitivity test and from an MRT food test), worked on the gut with pre and postbiotics, we were able to reintroduce these foods resolving the IgG mediated allergy. Fasting has had a very positive effect in reducing the carbohydrate loving dysbiotic bacteria (my hypothesis is they got their primary hold after taking a course of antibiotics when good bacteria were also destroyed which created room in the intestine for opportunistic pathogenic bacteria to rapidly fill the void). One meal a day fasts in succession combined with going keto created the feeling of critters exiting which was uncomfortable for a couple weeks but then led to increased clarity and improved stools.

#13

You’re right about antibiotics – people don’t realize that antibiotics don’t discriminate between good and bad bacteria. Many years ago, I had an infection on my wisdom tooth and the dentist put me on antibiotics for an entire month. That pretty much contributed to rampant yeast infection that took almost an entire year to get rid of. But once I recovered, I stopped taking the probiotics and didn’t think much about it until recently when I started to develop more and more food intolerances. Loved my breads but now have to forego most of it as I developed another food intolerance. I used to be intolerant to rice (it’s gluten-free and I’m told rarely becomes a food intolerance), which contributed to lots of painful inflammation, but recently, that has subsided as long as I don’t take too much of it. Fortunately, I can still take oatmeal and quinoa or I wouldn’t have any grains to take at all. I’m thinking since probiotics do help with gut inflammation, it may be helpful in reducing some of these intolerances.

#14

Rice - ouch. That is a tough intolerance and rare from what I have read. We had to go on a 3 day rotation so on Day 4 we would eat similar foods as Day 1 but not eat those foods on Day 2 and Day 3. Curious if you have tried a postbiotic like Tributyrn-X or Pure Encapsulations Sunbutryate-TG.

#15

No, but am always open to suggestions.

Someone recommended Seed, but it’s very pricey though they have impressive research to back their product, but there were people who didn’t benefit, so at this point, I’m not sure if I’m willing to invest so much money on it if I don’t know how effective it’s going to be… especially since there are still so many other brands out there.

#16

In terms of postbiotics (versus prebiotics), Tributyrn-X butyrate seems to help feed the colonocytes deep in the large intestine the most for us. However, Sunbutyrate TG Liquid butyrate also works well for us (we take 1 tbs) and is more affordable.

#17

Hi, when you say stacked coils to your forehead, I wondering where you put the “battery case”? When I’m doing my eye therapy, I stick the pack into a head band but I don’t think I could sleep like that. At some point, I need to sleep with coils on my nose for sleep apnea, but now I’m using it under my pillow to go back to sleep after the sleep apnea wakes me up (the clicking is so comforting!) Who knew aging could be so much fun! Looks like I need another M1 device :pensive:

#18

I slip the coils in a headband and the M1 case on my pillow. It doesn’t move around much, since the coils keep it from moving too far away even if I turn over.

But if you want to place over your nose, have you thought about using a balaclava? Don’t know how comfortable (maybe too hot?) it would feel to sleep with it on, but it could keep the coils in place.

#19

i use the longer coils and the m1 rests beside me on the bed. i use this headband to hold the coils on place:

just be sure not to cover your device with anything like a pillow or blanket to prevent it from overheating during operation.

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