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ICES questions

I am quoting Bob from an interview. I am trying to “apply” this understanding when making decisions for my brain and vision issues. Is there another article, which gives more information on which waveform works best for brain versus inflammation (which also would help brain) versus something like cancer. (What is the difference between this and tumor treating fields? Is that a waveform issue?)

“As for differences in pulse pattern (waveform and frequency), while technically there are many different PEMF pulse patterns, it is likely they fall into a few broad ranges based on their biological effects. Some may be optimal for inflammation, some for orthopedic injury, some will be able to influence brain function, some may have special effects on pathologic cells such as cancers and tumors, and a few may have tissue specific effects.”

And which settings have the most changing signals? Or should we possibly just alternate day to day or within a day? Do you have concepts or is that not understood yet?

“some biological receptors are more sensitive to a changing signal than a steady signal. This is true in vision and hearing, for example, and with many hormone receptors.A PEMF system that changes frequency within an effective range can have better long-term efficacy than a fixed precise unchanging frequency. There is an effect known as neuro-accommodation or habituation, where cells and tissues of the body tend over time to ignore monotonic signals after a while, so it is best to vary the signal a bit over time to keep the tissues from becoming less sensitive to it.”

I try to discuss these general broad categories in several of my YouTube videos. I think the best description is in this video:

ICES model M1 PEMF Protocols: Myths, facts, and opinions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwdCRHTJmFo

I discuss broad categories of pulse patterns that may (or may not) be appropriate for use on the brain or on orthopedic injuries.

Based on my experiments, observations, study, and experience for about two decades, I have formulated the following opinion. I may be wrong, it would not be the first time I have been wrong, but here is what I believe is true regarding PEMF:

There is no such thing as “precise pattern X treats or cures condition Y”.

To the extent there might be a shadow of truth in such PEMF marketing assertions, it remains pretty well unknown scientifically. So far as I can tell, all statements of this kind amount to misinterpretation of science or outright marketing fraud.

Now, of course, someone will read this, then produce a scientific paper with the finding “10 Hz is shown to reduce tumors” or something of the kind. But that does not mean that there is anything specifically magical about 10 Hz per se. The paper never demostrates that 10.001 Hz does not work, nor does 9.999 Hz, but only 10.000 Hz has the reported effect. Nothing at this level of precision is ever reported. And they generally do not report even much lower levels of precision, such as 9 Hz vs. 10 Hz vs. 11 Hz. This type of scientific finding is not meant to indicate precision, rather it should be interpreted as “Some form of PEMF in this broad (unspecified) range has an effect, which is different from the case where PEMF is not used”.

There are only very few papers that compare more than one frequency, and none that I know of do a comprehensive job of comparing patterns of pulses where the frequency varies. But many papers get positive results for just about any range of frequencies they try. This suggests that something other than “frequency” is of deeper importance.

Every shred of reliable scientific evidence I can find and every bit of direct experience I have keeps pointing to the same few key observations. In my opinion:

– THERE ARE NO SECRET FREQUENCIES. Frequency and Gauss are of secondary importance to other electromagnetic parameters which I discuss in detail in several videos including the one cited above.

– Broad general ranges of patterns that vary from time to time seem to work better than one specific, precise frequency or pattern.

– Any time (every time) you find a scientific paper that shows something such as 10 Hz does [something], it definitely does not prove that 10.000 Hz is the magic frequency. They never, ever compare 10.000 Hz to 10.001 Hz. The scientists involved are just trying to show that something works better than nothing.

Some things in the real world only need to be approximately correct, in the right general range.

The following analogy is an oversimplification, but it demonstrates the principle very clearly:

You could pick up a rock from the side of the road. Maybe it works as a paperweight, or a door stop. You weigh it and it happens to be 7.83 pounds. This does not mean that you have discovered a secret or optimal weight for a door stop. Indeed, quite a range of weights would work. Generally the weight needs to be:

1–Heavy enough to stay in place to keep the door from moving.

2–Light enough that you can lift it up and move it where you need it.

Different people have different physical strengths, and different doors are different sizes, so for any particular case, the right size rock (door stop) will fall into a wide range of weights that suits the person using it and the type of door. Generally, we could exclude extremely small or extremely large rocks, but there definitely is not one, precise optimal weight for a door stop rock. Some may be better than others, but there is not one precise “optimal” weight.

The reason I like this “optimal door stop” analogy is that it has a subtle nuance that is perfect for PEMF. While everyone may be looking for the optimal, perfect, secret weight for their rock, the thing that is being overlooked here is the shape of the rock, not necessarily its weight. When you get a rock that is perfectly shaped (a wedge of the correct dimensions), it can be very small and light but still work surprisingly well as a doorstop.

And this is basically what I have been telling people for many years: They are looking at the wrong parameters for PEMF. In my opinion:

You only need the frequency or pulse pattern to be in approximately the correct range (a very broad range, but not well defined scientifically yet, and it probably varies from person to person)

What matters most is pulse shape. When you get the pulse shape correct, PEMF seems to broadly have beneficial biological effects. This is what all the evidence I have gathered over decades points to.

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Wow, Thanks, Bob!

I thought I had seen it before, but that one is my favorite of all of the ones I have seen yet to date. Excellent presentation. Clear. Concise. Love the graphics.

Thank you so much for doing all of this. I appreciate it and respect you for it at such a high level.

The only topic I am trying to understand is gauss. I have been watching your other videos trying to find one which covers gauss as a topic and haven’t found it yet.

I was reading something by Dr. Pawluck and he said that gauss is important for getting the wave deeper into the body.

The example I can use is that Leader Mark commented to someone about whether the device could reach deeply enough into a part of the brain.

That comment just caused me to buy a Sota Magnetic Pulser to see what I experience with the 6000 gauss. I have watched so many videos arguing back and forth about whether power matters and I feel like I have decided that it doesn’t, and my small understanding seems to be “except for areas which are deeper in the body.”

Yes, I just bought theirs because it was the only higher gauss one which I could afford. I have been improving so much. I saw one video, which made me curious about theirs and I am wondering if I can figure out how to make sure I am reaching deeper into my brain by combining the two devices.

I probably could have bought a second M-1.

I have had a bad brain for so long that I am just wanting to really press into this process and know that I just did an impulse buy because of the videos on gauss.

Oh well. I know that I had pondered that question for years and felt like there never would be a way for me to understand unless I bought one.

The M-1 really is helping so much. I just want to really get healed.

I have been watching your videos for hours.

I feel like I am learning a lot.

You mentioned that you have been working on a larger system. Curious what that sentence means?

Keep in mind, pulse pattern may be more important if you are stimulating the brain than other tissues because of brain wave entrainment. That is actually a separate issue than the beneficial effects of PEMF for inducing tissue regeneration. Mostly, when involving the brain, I think it would be important to use a pattern that does not cause discomfort. And if you are looking for another effect on the brain that goes beyond potential tissue regeneration, pulse pattern may also be important.

At this point many people might be thinking: “There it is! I’ve cracked it!! He’s about to reveal the secret, finally!”

But when you foray into the subject of the effects of PEMF on the brain such as awareness, alertness, consciousness, memory, learning, “brain fog”, and so forth, I am not asserting that anything is necessary or true regarding PEMF. I am simply stating “I do not know.”

Regarding “Gauss”, here is the problem we face in the PEMF marketplace:

Mostly people buy PEMF systems based on a belief that the published specifications are true. But the problem is this: it is well known that PEMF marketers often over-state their specifications by a factor of 10x or even as high as 100x. After all, how would the consumer know?

Consider this analogy:

If I sell you a dozen oranges, you can just open the bag and count the oranges. If I shorted you a few oranges, you would know right away. If I did this to many customers, my reputation as a grocer would soon deteriorate, and people would stop buying oranges from me.

But what about Gauss? Has anyone ever seen one? Can you measure Gauss? I can because I have the necessary scientific instruments, but the vast majority of people can not. For most people, you are stuck with the option of believing them, or not. You cannot verify “Gauss” for yourself.

This is a common problem with many products where verification is difficult. For example, consider rechargeable batteries. Many people shop on-line for batteries and buy the ones with the largest capacity (mAh) for the dollar. As a result, disreputable battery manufacturers simply print a larger value on their battery than is actually true. I have measured this many times, and I have discovered in most cases that off-brand battery manufacturers very frequently sell batteries with an actual energy capacity of about half of the amount they advertise. So, for example, a 1000 mAh lithium-ion battery may in reality only be about 500 mAh when you actually test it, as I have done.

For the average person, the only clue they get to this deception is after they use the new battery, and in reality they find that it does not last as long as their honestly-labeled original battery, which supposedly had a lower capacity.

By the time consumers discover this, it is too late, and they probably can’t prove it anyway.

The more standardized and verifiable the values become, the harder it is for low-integrity manufacturers and marketers to do this type of scam. But the problem is this: there are no established standards in the field of PEMF, so manufacturers and marketers can say anything they want to say and people try to make sense of it. But in reality their claims can be off by a factor of 10 to 100, and people have no way of knowing. Their only clue is the vague sense that “I tried this new PEMF system for a few months, and it does not seem to work as well as the other one.”

So, to answer your question directly, in my opinion, Gauss does matter, but not the way PEMF marketers claim. If it were simply “Gauss”, then all you need is a strong magnet. These are many times higher Gauss than any PEMF system, and usually cost only a few dollars.

But fixed magnets do not work biologically the same way as pulsed magnetic fields. Why? Because of the pulse. Specifically, the shape of the pulse. Not just the frequency, not just the Gauss, the specific shape of the PEMF waveform. This is exceedingly difficult to measure, and several PEMF manufacturers have actually contacted me over the years to help them measure their pulse shapes, because they are unable to do so themselves. It is very common for PEMF manufacturers to sell their products without even accurately knowing what they are selling.

There is a technical reason why Gauss does matter. It is only a secondary value, because it is the result of the underlying values that really matter. It is difficult to understand this unless you have a good command of calculus and electro-magnetic theory, but basically the reason Gauss matters is this:

1- The rate of change of the magnetic field induces an electric field in deep tissues. This rate of change is measured in Gauss PER SECOND. (G/s)

2- The induced electric field needs to be above a minimum threshold to have a biological effect, Therefore there will be a minimum value for G/s. This is related to a biological parameter for excitable tissues termed “Rheobase”, which has been known about for about a century, I have written about it in several scientific papers, but for the most part even biologists find it too complex, so they ignore it when they can.

3-The duration of the pulse needs to be a certain minimum duration. Duration is a time, measured in seconds (usually micro-seconds). This is related to another biological parameter for excitable tissues, termed “Chronaxie”. This is another one of those parameters that is known to biologists, but remains somewhat mysterious, so they simply set their experimental stimulators to “long enough” and then ignore the details.

4- When you multiply the threshold magnetic field rate (G/s) times the minimum duration (s) you get Gauss:

     G/s  *  s = G

This is exactly like saying that if you drive 50 miles per hour, and you drive for two hours you have traveled a distance of:

50 * 2 = 100 miles (miles/hour * hours = miles)

The reason is this: the time units cancel out, leaving you with a distance: miles.

But when driving, the main thing you need to keep an eye on is speed, not distance, or you will get a ticket. Police do not ticket you for traveling too far. They ticket you for traveling too fast. Speed and distance are related, but they are fundamentally different quantities.

Similarly, “Gauss/sec” and “Gauss” are related (but they are different), and you will get a certain Gauss level if you maintain a certain Gauss/sec for a certain time, but what REALLY MATTERS is Gauss/second, not just Gauss.

PEMF marketers do not understand this, or if they do, they understand that this explanation is not good for their sales, so they simply misrepresent their product, and sell “Gauss”

Bottom line: Gauss matters, but only indirectly, because it is derived from the real, important, underlying parameters of pulse edge slope (G/s) and pulse edge duration (s)

Now, here is where it starts to get much more complicated. A few clinical PEMF experts asked my why, if Gauss is only secondary, does it require more Gauss to reach deeper tissues. The answer has to do with the physics of magnetic field lines.

The first thing you need to know is that magnetic fields drop off and disappear pretty quickly when you move farther away from the source of the magnetism. It is much more complex and rapid than the inverse square law which describes the drop off of light intensity from a point source of light.

So, as you move farther from the source of magnetism (deeper into tissues, for example), the peak magnetic field for each pulse rapidly gets smaller and smaller. To maintain the minimum necessary G/s to have a biological effect, this means as you get farther away from the magnetic source, you need to increase the value of G (Gauss) to maintain the minimum value of G/s.

This explains why, in general, you do need more Gauss to reach deeper tissues. But you need to maintain the threshold G/s, not just G, or it will not work.

If this has your head spinning, that is OK. Most people think that simple questions necessarily have simple answers. But this is not necessarily true. Just try asking any physicist why the sky is blue. They may have mercy on you and give you the “baby” answer. But if you keep asking, and they finally tell you the real answer, with all the math, you will see what I mean.

These physical relationships are so subtle and complex, it takes a lifetime of diligent study to begin to understand them. So, PEMF marketers take the low-integrity path of “simplifying it” for you, telling you the “secrets”… but then they just box up a simple, over-powered square wave pulse generator. These seem to work, but they are highly inefficient. So you get exposed to hundreds of times more electro-magnetic energy than you need to for the desired biological effect.

You will often see the same kinds of deception when PEMF marketers sell you a “whole-body” PEMF. These do not really have the physical requirements to provide adequate magnetic field stimulation for your whole body, but the higher price tag, and the larger pad, do look reassuring to most people.

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Basically, what I meant by “I am working on a larger system” is that I am always working on developing new and improved PEMF systems. But I usually find, after a lot of work, that in the world of PEMF, larger is not necessarily better.

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@Bob Thanks for that helpful info! Would I be right in saying that if someone used the B5/C5 and stacked their coils they would have a deeper penetration potential than say a stacked M1/A9 coil? If so, then for larger individuals (bigger rocks) or denser tissues (skull/brain) they could reach further into those areas faster than a more shallow “beam?”

correct. I have measured it directly, and when you stack coils, the peak magnetic field is increased by about 60% (not doubled). This gives better field penetration to deeper tissues, and this is precisely the strategy behind the new “deep field” coil assemblies we just started offering at Micro-Pulse:

These are designed to work with the model C5 (not the A9 or M1) because we can add up the field strength from two full-power, synchronized outputs from the C5. The outputs need to be synchronized, which is why it is not possible to stack coils from the more than one A9 or M1.

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Just so it’s clear for others, this because they are synchronized outputs. The reason this wouldn’t work with two A9s or M1s is because the output from each coil wouldn’t be synchronized.

that is correct. The pulses need to be synchronized or they will not add together.

Would there be any benefit to using the stacked coils with the A9b? Or would the added field strength be less than just using a single pair of coils at a higher power?

Only if you stack the individual coils from a single pair of coils. That increases the effective power, but reduces the coils to one (because the stacked pair of rings combines to make only one coil ring).

Reason: The A9B (and the M1) have single outputs. The A9b does allow you to split the output, but this divides the power between the coils. If you divide by 2, then stack them to multiply by 2, you get no net increase.

That’s the simple and correct answer.


But here is the “secret” about more power:

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT BENEFIT FROM MORE POWER. Based on several thousand observations, I estimate that at least 95% of all injuries respond best to less power, applied for a longer period of time. Hundreds of times I have had to talk people off the ledge of MORE POWER, MORE POWER!!

People scramble for more power because most devices do not really work well, so they think by cranking it up, maybe they will get more of the good effect.

This is what most PEMF manufacturers try to do, so there has been a mad scramble for MORE GAUSS, MORE GAUSS!!

But excess energy can often have collateral negative effects. And even with our ultra-low power ICES-PEMF devices, the highest power settings are rarely necessary. Sometimes when the power is set way too high, the benefits actually decrease. I have spent hours convincing people to try lower power settings, and the vast majority of the time, if and when they finally do try lower power, they find almost all the time, when used properly, medium power settings work better than extremely high power settings.

By “properly”, I mean the use of ICES-PEMF for several hours every day for orthopedic injuries. Some people want a quick fix, so they try this trick:

Double the power, cut the time in half! :slight_smile:

Well, it doesn’t really work that way. ICES-PEMF is designed to help reduce pathological inflammatory effects, and this seems to happen at very low energy. It is much more helpful to maintain this state of reduced inflammation for longer periods of time, rather than trying to blast yourself to shorten the time.

In my scientific opinion, PEMF is not magic, it is just not well understood scientifically, but it seems to suppress pathological inflammatory states, which in turn allows the body to heal at a natural rate. This seems like magic if you have been suffering from chronic injuries for a long time, but is really more like the natural healing rate that the body would normally operate at, if not inhibited by pathologic inflammation. But any healing process takes time.

So, in my opinion, most people do not need more power, they a need longer duration of daily use.

In the rare (very rare) cases where more power is required, you can try stacking coils as described.

NOTE: do not confuse the ultra-low power of the devices I have designed with the low power of some of the cheaply built PEMF devices out there. They are low power because of low quality, not because of ultra-high efficiency. Their pulses are not properly shaped, so they are both low power and inefficient, meaning that they probably confer no benefit at all.

Honestly, I spend a huge amount of time improving the efficiency of ICES-PEMF, and this work is not added to the cost of the product. I simply do it because it needs to be done. I also carefully select and test each and every electronic component. Most components simply are not good enough quality for ultra-efficient designs. I extensively test every single component, and compare them to every other available component. I select the most efficient ones and use those for my designs.

Then, I spend ZERO dollars on marketing, ZERO on branding, ZERO on distribution or middle-men. 100% of the money is spent on ultra-efficient design. My wife and I do all this by ourselves. We have ZERO employees. Our only costs aside from basic R&D are the components and the cost for assembly, testing, boxing and shipping, and after-sale customer support.

We order components and assemblies in quantity, from excellent suppliers. So it would be very difficult for anyone to sell our exact ultra-efficient design for less than we do. They would just lose money at it, and if they changed anything in an attempt to reduce their costs, their products would not work as well.

Different designs have the same problem: since they do not focus on ultra-efficient design, it would be next to impossible for them to sell a more efficient PEMF product for less than we sell them.

So most PEMF products fall into one of two categories:

1- HIGH POWER, that is also highly inefficient, with dangerous excess non-beneficial energy and usually with wild and fraudulent claims.

2- LOW POWER, with low cost and low quality and little or no effectiveness.

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Thanks, I was thinking “more” as in deep field for those rare cases.

Bob, I am using the B5 with quad coils to treat my kidneys. Do I get enough penetration using single stack coils to effect the kidneys, or do I need to double stack?

Unfortunately, that is unknown. There are no standards for “deep enough”, and we can make absolutely, positively no statements about effectiveness,.

My best guess: kidneys are near the surface, so it is not likely you need any extra depth.

About the only cases where extra field depth seems to make much difference is for the deepest tissues, such as the hip, on very large people, that are very resistant to anything.

My opinion: Unless you weigh over 230 LBS, and you are working with very serious hip issues, and they are very resistant to anything, the use of stacked coils is not likely to be necessary for any other application.

Even in this case, they would be needed for only the most usually resistant tissues, which seems to be very infrequent.

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Thanks, Bob, you have given a lot of detail.

Thanks for your patience with those of us who never took calculus.

I do understand your examples. I think it was listening to Dr. Pawluk say that the other one penetrates so much further is why I wanted to try it. I have friends who are very heavy and very crippled… One is close to 400 pounds and would probably need deeper depths. If I had known about the double stacked coils of the C-5, I would have done that.

Maybe next year. I can only spend so much on gadgets per year.

I want to thank you that you have taken the time and expense even to buy other machines and to do those types of tests. I recommend your product all of the time and you are the reason why.

As far as simple versus technical answers, I appreciate both. Honestly, if I had thought to ask you first and received the response you just gave, I wouldn’t have bought that other device. I mostly bought that one based on Dr. Pawluk’s talking about it and based on 2 reviews. I bought yours based on listening to you talk in interviews. You had higher credibility than everyone else and not just because I believed the fake NASA story and the concept that you had invented PEMF. I started this whole process with such major brain problems and couldn’t follow anybody’s logic. I was so out of touch with reality even. I watched some of the conspiracy theorist Rife and Bob Beck and all sorts of things and felt even more uncertain of how to stabilize my sense of reality and become grounded mentally. Your just dealing with the science in a matter-of-fact way was easier for me to process than what everybody else was doing. I went to some sites and they were so New Agey and I had caution lights flashing in my brain from every bit of it. Others were so sales-pitch oriented and I felt like I couldn’t trust any of them and my family and medical model people weren’t even open to the technology, but then I would see people who got healed who seemed legitimate and I saw PubMed studies and had no idea of they would have been real or not real because of the talk of industry studies which I had been hearing about. You and your wife doing a mom and pop organization is what my family is and you remind me of my brothers. I still get fooled by things, but not to the degree that I was getting fooled at the beginning. Detailed answers, like those you have given, have allowed me to process the information better. I needed the shape matters more and the gauss/second is what matters more than gauss - because everybody else has been giving that gauss makes it penetrate farther in and my mind had a logic of wanting that. Your answer really helped me. I value that highly.

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I analyzed it last night and I do buy into that low power is more effective. I needed a logic for deeper penetration.

I will probably be lending that other PEMF to a friend who is particularly heavy and particularly crippled by it.

I want to ask though, based solely on your opinion as someone who has tested so many PEMF’s and taken so many apart.

The one I bought is DC and has a burst, rather than a wave, if I am explaining it properly.

I am following that brain entrainment requires the right shape wave even more, but do you believe that there is a biological benefit from the type that I am speaking about or is it a scam? I know I am asking a question you might not want to answer or be able to answer. When I was looking at PEMF’s there were only a few in my price range and that one was one and I watched the “power” debates and chose your PEMF as the one which I trusted more, but that one was interesting to me because of the depth of penetration.

I am hearing your warning not to use it on my brain, but will it work for my friend’s back or is it just a waste of money?

I guess some of us needed to learn from experience, but I will try to be careful with my brain because I have had so much improvement and I continue to have improvement.

Can you speak frankly? I am not holding you to whatever. I just know that you have tested them and that you actually took the calculus, etc. Originally, I didn’t buy that one because it didn’t have a wave shape, but I was attracted to it because of one man’s video where he shared several testimonials, but it is hard to know what to believe on the internet. It feels like it worked for him and like Dr. Pawluk selling it was enough for me to be interested, but if I give it to my friend and it does nothing at all, they won’t try it ever again.

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I would be happy to tell you what I know, but honestly, it is hard to know anything for sure about most PEMF products. They often change from batch-to-batch, and their manufacturing quality controls do not usually include the important parameters, such as the exact pulse shape, so their quality and consistency is highly variable and out-of-control.

I think the only way to really know if any specific PEMF devise actually works is to try it yourself and see. The PEMF industry has no established standards, so I would try to go with reputable manufacturers if you know of any. But even that is hard to nail down.

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That is what I do understand.

I don’t have high confidence in most of the ones I could afford.

The ICES was the one I trusted.

Curatron and ones like Bemer at least have testing and seem to do something, but they were out of my price range already. The clinical ones also seem to do something but I am going by places like Truly Heal and chiropractors which have put videos online.

Some of them are $20,000 or more and my cousin went to a naturopath and used one for $1000 for 10 sessions and had no benefit. I feel like I have had so much benefit with the ICES that I hated that he wouldn’t try it because of him feeling like that experience was a waste of time. He is on dialysis now and ends up in the hospital every other week. It doesn’t look good for him. I don’t know that he will be around much longer and he is so miserable and in such pain. It is frustrating to me that once people feel “burned” by expensive trials with it they don’t want to get fooled again.

I feel genuinely blessed that I got so many real healings and have a device that I get to lend out. Though the benefit of the other device will be that I can lend that one out and still keep trying to heal my own brain.