Flux Health Forum

2 Pads better than 1 for full body effect?

i’ve been exploring these earthing/grounding mats… of course, like anything, the list of claims is long and miraculous… interestingly, the biggest claim is that it helps with inflammation and pain. i have not had anything specific to “heal,” but i did have some unexpected, positive results. I dunno if we can say placebo as I did not know at the time that this was one of the claims. :slight_smile:

anyway… the point of my ramble leads to this: I think people are looking for a mat option bc it’s convenient… for pemf, if we could do a mat where we can just sleep on it or sit on it and not worry about wires and how to configure coils, that’s a benefit in itself! even as a smaller blanket where wires are tucked away would be convenient.

It sure sounds easy… but it’s really not.

Not sure if this is related, but it is in your message, so… earthing/grounding mats are entirely different from PEMF in every way. You could make those as large as you want without any added complexity.

haha… you’re right…i was hoping the pemf fairy could make it by magic somehow.

since the coils don’t have to be synced to work, one can just get 2-3 c5s and wrap the coils in a contiguous configuration for a “most body coverage mat”… it’d just be a lil costly and lots of wires to deal with… right?

I think what struck me was @Bob’s reply a few days ago about using 6 C5s.

Well, not a lil costly if you want a whole body sized mat with a real active area the size of a body. If you actually calculate it, then a stack of C5’s and coils large enough to be legitimately “whole body” would end up costing as much or more than most of the commercially-available “whole body” (not) systems. Making large-volume magnetic fields is very (very^x) costly, no way around that.

As for my statement that “it does not work as well…”, of course I could not possibly test it for all people at all ages and for all possible conditions. I tested it on a few people for chronic pain. Larger surfaces did not work as well if they are much larger than a few 2x2 coil arrays. Interestingly, when a few coils failed (not connected properly or broken wires) the larger arrays worked slightly better -> which I interpret as more evidence for the enhanced effect of focal application rather than large area application of PEMF for pain and inflammation.

@Bob as always, thanks for speaking candidly on this subject.

People like my colleague and other gym/spa owners who are putting PEMF units into their facilities are doing so based on the assumption that there is a general health optimization and/or disease prevention benefit from regular PEMF. The self service use of full body PEMF in these facilities is not intended to treat pain or relieve any other symptoms. It is based on the purely speculative idea that long-term, regular use would offer general improvements to energy level, sleep, etc. and reduce the incidence of autoimmune diseases in cancer, for example. There’s obviously no evidence to support this position other than extrapolating from various correlations that may not be related in any particular way.

For example, the fact that being completely isolated from the magnetic fields of the earth have detrimental health effects does not prove that regular full body exposure to Schumann resonances provides any added benefit beyond just living in a world that is constantly bathed in these fields. It would be necessary to do a very large longitudinal study that spanned several generations to answer this question in humans. Is anybody aware of such research in animals whose lifespan is short enough to do a valid analysis?

It’s also impossible to answer this question based upon the subjective reports of people who use full body PEMF either at home or in a facility, because there are always dozens of other variables at play. For example, the same people who are getting regular full body PEMF are also often eating a strict diet, have a regular exercise regimen, meditate, do yoga, drink special forms of water, etc. I’m not knocking any of this. I do it all myself. Just saying that it is difficult to tease out whether an intervention is beneficial or not when there are no acute symptoms to use as a marker. To that point, I have found various local forms of PEMF to be clearly beneficial in a wide variety of scenarios (low back pain, upper respiratory infection, headaches, knee pain, foot pain, flank pain). On the other hand, I used a full body 70G mat at least once a day for five months, and I can’t say for sure that it benefited me in any way.

It might be instructive to draw a comparison with acupuncture. There are 365 standard acupuncture points on the surface of the body. Arguably, full body PEMF would be stimulating all of them simultaneously. No acupuncturist would ever make the argument that such a shotgun approach would be necessary. Of course, it wouldn’t be possible to do such a treatment, so we don’t know what it might do. However, if it was more effective than a standard acupuncture treatment, there would be no reason to develop a complex system of medicine based on precision selection of areas of the body to stimulate.

The standard approach in acupuncture would be to choose a relatively small number of local and distal points. Local points are those points that are close to or directly on the area where the symptoms are occurring, while distal points are generally points on the same acupuncture channel or a connected channel located below the knees or the elbows. I suppose it’s possible that a full body treatment would be more effective than a precision selection of points and that it was just more efficient in the pre-modern age to use that approach. However, with the technological advantage provided by modern engineering, maybe there is some added benefit that would be unknown to the ancients.

There’s this “theory” that I have frequently heard from the high intensity full body crowd, which is that your body ignores the magnetic fields when they pass through healthy areas of the body and only areas that are “out of balance” are actually stimulated by the fields. There’s probably no scientific evidence for this and it sounds a bit pseudoscientific to me.

It occurred to me the other day that a compromise between local and full body PEMF might be a mat that is designed to stimulate only the acupuncture channels on the back, primarily focusing on the spine and the areas just lateral to it. In Chinese medicine, this comprises the governing vessel over the spine and the portion of the so-called bladder channel associated with what are called the Back-Transporting (aka Shu) points. Here’s why one of the main acupuncture textbooks has to say about these points:

The importance of the back transporting points in treatment cannot be over emphasized. They are particularly important for the treatment of chronic diseases. The Chinese character for these points means to transport, indicating that they transport qi to the inner organs. Each point takes its name from the corresponding organ. There’s a back transporting point for each of the yin and yang organs. The back transporting points affect the organs directly. The way in which they act is quite different from that of all the other points. When treating the internal organs, other points work by stimulating qi of the channel, which then flows along the channel like a wave eventually reaching the internal organs. When you needle the back transporting points, Qi goes directly to the relevant organ not through the intermediary of a channel. They’re also thought to have a strong effect on the sensory organs that correspond with the primary organs of Chinese medicine. For example, the liver is associated with the eyes.

The back transporting points are associated with the branch of the bladder channel that runs closest to the spine. As those familiar with acupuncture channels know, the bladder channel has two branches on the back, one which is just lateral to the spine and another that is lateral to that. There are several points on this outer line of the bladder channel that are specifically associated with the psychospiritual components of the organs. As the back transporting points are used in both deficiency and excess conditions, and because the outer line of the bladder channel affects the psychospiritual aspects of the organs, stimulating this area of the body alone seems like it may meet the criteria for a general health optimization treatment without bumping up against the problems associated with full body PEMF (cost relative to benefit, lack of specific research, etc.).

ICES-PEMF systems are specifically designed to allow use directly on any selected acupuncture site. This was part of the design intent of portable, wearable ICES-PEMF systems. For example, equine acupuncturists were among the first to test our systems and give helpful feedback. And it is worth noting that trying to transform ICES-PEMF into a large “whole body” system completely eliminates this important and useful aspect of ICES-PEMF system design.

As for the rest of your message: speculative, yes, and that’s fine. But I know very little about most of it so I can’t comment. But you are certainly welcome to try these and comment on the use of ICES-PEMF for any or all of these, and many other observations, speculations, and theories.

There was a apparently a systematic review of whole body PEMF devices published in the bioelectromagnetics journal a while back. The article was submitted for review in 2010, so the information gathered was from the studies available before then. Here’s a link to the abstract. I was able to view the full article on a service that I subscribe to but I’m not able to download it and distribute it.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bem.20703

Pulsed electromagnetic fields (PEMF) delivered by whole-body mats are promoted in many countries for a wide range of therapeutic applications and for enhanced well-being. However, neither the therapeutic efficacy nor the potential health hazards caused by these mats have been systematically evaluated. We conducted a systematic review of trials investigating the therapeutic effects of low-frequency PEMF devices. We were interested in all health outcomes addressed so far in randomized, sham-controlled, double-blind trials. In total, 11 trials were identified. They were focused on osteoarthritis of the knee (3 trials) or the cervical spine (1), fibromyalgia (1), pain perception (2), skin ulcer healing (1), multiple sclerosis-related fatigue (2), or heart rate variability and well-being (1). The sample sizes of the trials ranged from 12 to 71 individuals. The observation period lasted 12 weeks at maximum, and the applied magnetic flux densities ranged from 3.4 to 200 µT. In some trials sporadic positive effects on health were observed. However, independent confirmation of such singular findings was lacking. We conclude that the scientific evidence for therapeutic effects of whole-body PEMF devices is insufficient. Acute adverse effects have not been reported. However, adverse effects occurring after long-term application have not been studied so far. In summary, the therapeutic use of low-frequency whole-body PEMF devices cannot be recommended without more scientific evidence from high-quality, double-blind trials. Bioelectromagnetics 33:95–105, 2012. © 2011 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

Several things jump out at me about this abstract:

The intensity used on these products is extremely low. Far lower than the products we normally think of as low intensity in this forum, such as Micro-pulse, flex pulse, and some parmeds units The strongest product generated a field of 200 micro tesla. 200 micro tesla equals 2 gauss.

Almost half of the studies that met the criteria for inclusion were for local problems such as knee, cervical spine, and skin ulcers. One was on fibromyalgia, which is normally a whole body problem. Two were on pain perception, which I would assume varied in location from subject to subject. One was on multiple sclerosis related fatigue, which is arguably a systemic symptom but one which may be directly related to Central nervous system function. Only one of the studies that met the inclusion criteria was focused on general well-being. The conclusion of the authors was that there was no evidence at that time to indicate the effectiveness of full body PEMF systems.

Yes, this was a very disappointing review of PEMF. They were wrong about so many of their assumptions, explicit and implicit, that the only solid conclusion we can draw from this review is that PEMF is so poorly reported in the scientific literature that we can conclude almost nothing from 6 decades of academic research on PEMF. If you take the whole of what I have written on this forum, and cross reference it against what is said in that review, the whole review falls apart like wet toilet paper.

Nonetheless, they did correctly point out that there is almost no solid scientific evidence in support of the effectiveness of “whole body” PEMF systems for any particular condition. Whether they are effective is a different issue… my point is that we have no way of knowing for sure that they are effective for anything. So:

Q: how is it that “whole body” PEMF marketers can make so many claims?

Answer: fraud.

Q. why is it that so many people believe that “whole body” PEMF systems are the ultimate embodiment of PEMF?

Answer: Repetition. Repeat a lie enough times and it becomes truth.

My opinion on the matter: Some “whole body” PEMF systems probably do work, at least somewhat, but not for the reasons they claim because the marketers do not understand what they are selling. Of course I could be wrong, but I have been looking at this picture for more than 25 years, and that seems to be how it is resolving into focus.

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The folks who sell the really expensive high intensity full body systems often refer to the extensive body of research on PEMF as a selling point. @Bob, I know you have been a voracious consumer of the research literature for decades. Was any of this research done on full body systems as far as you know?

As I keep saying, and will continue to say, over and over and over and over:

There are no real “Whole Body” PEMF machines. It is a physical impossibility to make one the way they make them currently with pads. Unfortunately, these are the PEMF systems used in “whole body” PEMF research because they are commercially available.

Therefore:

There has not been any real scientific research on “whole body” machines. None. Zero.

In addition to this, they do not measure, record, and report the actual electro-magnetic parameters that actually have biological effects. If you want “Gauss”, you can but a very powerful rare earth solid magnet for a few dollars. But a pulsed magnetic field requires detailed measurement and description of the waveform, or you simply cannot know what is being studied.

Therefore:

Even if someone did produce a “Whole body” PEMF mat, they have never actually researched it in a way that makes scientific sense.

In addition to this, the publication bias across all areas of academic medical research is 80 to 90%, and in my opinion it is worse than this in the area of PEMF research. This widespread deficiency in academic medical research is well researched and documented. This means that if an experiment yields negative or undesirable results, it is at least 5 times, perhaps 10 times, as likely to not ever get published in peer review as a paper with positive results. But negative results are crucial scientific information, but we are missing them in medical research, and especially in PEMF research.

Therefore:

Taking the entire huge body of research on PEMF, it is important to realize that 80% to 90% of it is missing. It was never published due to publication bias.

CONCLUSION:

No matter how large the body of published research is, we basically know nothing about the effects of “whole body” PEMF other than what I pointed out in my previous response.

P.S.
No matter how many ways this question is reformulated to ask it from a slightly different angle, I will give the same answer because it is the truth.

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How about making a pretty covering on Bob’s small pad, and telling the customers to place it over or under the area they have trouble with? Making sure it’s not adding volume on the side facing them?

The 2x2 coil pad is designed to be placed below thin pillows, pet bedding, under sheets, and to be placed inside cloth or foam covers. Different people need different things, so I do not try to develop all possible garments and pads. It’s really a DIY thing to do.

Are all the coils strong enough to go through normal bed sheets? Id like to put the 2x2 arrays I have under my sheets, what is the maximum thickness I should stop at? And how about the regular coils?

Yes, definitely, and even thin pillows and cloth bandages.

Hello, I noticed a few people talking about the healthyline pemf mats in this thread and just wanted to add this link as it seems to be very cheaply made and actually could be harming people.

Peace

I had been advised that natural organic fibers like cotton, silk, and wool have a beneficial wavelength that is more conductive than synthetics materials that could possibly interfere with the PEMF signal. Have you tested for using pads below different materials?
Statements have been made that wearing natural materials may also increase negative radiation from Wifi, cellular, and stray EMF signals. Is this also so?

Hi @JILL, people occasionally ask me this kind of question, so I think there is a lot of interest, and a lot of misunderstanding.

Just to set the stage, there are really important and legitimate fields of science that study wavelengths and frequencies related to materials, physical processes, and life itself. We know (know = can measure, replicate, and verify) many things by studying wavelengths and frequencies. Things we have learned include: How old are distant stars, how well are nerve axons conducting, are trace chemicals present in a substance or on a surface, how does light work (in space, through matter), what exactly is “color”, how do plants extract energy from sunlight, and countless other things like this. This is real, sold, valuable, provable science.

There are also a lot of things we do not know about frequencies and wavelengths. These include the health effects of various electro-magnetic emissions. I think many people, including myself, believe the negative health effects are real, and we need to study them seriously because we don’t quite understand these effects yet.

Then there is a third category, where some people make claims about frequencies and wavelengths when they have no actual information. Maybe they just have a strong intuition, maybe they are just taking an honest guess when they observe an effect, or maybe they are intentionally committing fraud. Examples would be:
1 - I just have a strong feeling about synthetic fibers (intuition)
2 - Natural unbleached cotton always makes me feel better, so maybe it has a special frequency (honest guess)
3 - As a clinician, you will pay me to tell you which foods to eat, which fabrics to wear, and what colors to paint your walls because I know the special secret frequencies that are good and bad. If you ask me to explain or prove it, I will show you a mash-up of images from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, some Egyptian hieroglyphs, combined with altered figures from an introductory Physics text book. (I could be wrong, but I’m thinking… fraud)

Believe it or not, I think there is a place for all of this, including a bit of fraud.
Intuition - Most discoveries throughout history result from chance or intuition, or both if you happen to be very skillful (chance favors the prepared mind). But once you have a chance discovery or the epiphany of intuition, you then need to follow up with real science: repeated observations, measurements, hypothesis tests, etc.

Honest guess - People have to do this all the time because we need to make important decisions with incomplete information. But before anyone runs forward with these honest guesses to give clinical advice to other people, they have the responsibility to do a lot more serious work first.

Fraud - Not my favorite, but from time to time I have to tell myself little lies just to coax myself forward. I have to play confidence games with myself: “Go ahead Bob, give it a try, you can make it work or figure it out.” Initially I might be doubtful, but sometimes it does work. A bit of optimistic self-talk can be useful, especially when you start to try to solve very difficult problems. But I strictly limit fraudulent talk to cases where I think it will really be helpful. I think this is broadly true: clinicians with positive attitudes are known to have better patient outcomes compared to pessimistic clinicians, even when both are fully aware that the realistic prognosis is not favorable.


OK, lots of philosophical talk, but how does this relate to your question?

The wording of your question, which I presume is based on what they told you, sounds to me like they do not know the meanings of the technical words they are using, but I could be wrong.

Have I tested different fabrics/materials with our ICES-PEMF coils? Absolutely. I have done extensive testing and made countless measurements. The results are: exactly the advice I give people on how to use coils. You can find this throughout this FORUM, briefly: any kind of cloth or bandage is OK, but try to avoid metal sheets, plates, screens, etc.

Negative WiFi radiation increased by… Sounds like BS to me. I could be wrong, but I would chalk this up to the basic observation that some people benefit from wearing natural fibers, but then they extrapolate to make pseudo-scientific guesses that are probably wildly wrong.

So, in general when people make claims of the health effects of fabrics, foods, scents, etc., they may base this on observations of the effects on health, but these effects are probably not due to a “frequency” or “wavelength”. The effect may be real, but IMO their explanations are usually based on nothing.

So, whether or not you take their advice, you should try to judge where they are on the spectrum:
Intuition — honest guess ---- Fraud

Even bad people can occasionally give good advice, but you need to put their advice into the greater context of who is saying it, why they are saying it, are they really trying to help you, or are they trying to do something else.

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The talk of material interfering with therapy sounds very much like what they talk about in the grounding/earthing groups. certain materials like synthetic fabrics can interfere with making contact with a grounding mat. not all materials are conductive so they do recommend certain materials like cotton. on that subject they are not talking about frequencies or magnetic waves.

on the note about science that Bob had mentioned above, fortunately there’s hard science about grounding that you can hang your hat on. it’s rooted in electrical conductivity. the studies about the benefit of grounding are varied like that of pemf… i personally like many others have found benefit and results from grounding… namely in how it relaxes my body measured but hrv (heart rate variability)

This makes a lot of sense to me too.