Flux Health Forum

"Low" Power vs. Ultra-low Power

Pets and Animals
#1

I own 2 A9s and am considering using 1 on my cat with kidney disease after seeing the study/article (in Josam) re: treating one cat with kidney disease and seeing very positive results.

I realize you can make no clinical recommendations so my following questions are general and technical in nature.

According to this case study the treatment regimen was 2-3x weekly for no more than an hour per session on the medium setting. While I understand that you generally consider the A9 a “low” power device, at least compared to the full body mats, I’ve been researching other devices and seeing a few with what looks like “ULTRA-low” power outputs – especially when it comes to devices made specifically for PET use.

The rationale seems to be the “less is more” approach, with a goal of constant daily treatment. Especially in the case of the Assisi Pet Loop (the lowest at only .04 gauss), which can be used under a pet bed on a 24 hr auto cycle of 15 min every 2 hrs. Perhaps they feel that this very low dose is safer for constant 24/7 use in small animals?

In your opinion, do these ultra-low power devices have a chance of being as effective, at least with a cat? And could there be an advantage (in general) to treating at ultra low powers for extended daily periods vs higher power for shorter and less often (as per your case study)?

For example:

  1. ICES A9, Low setting: 7000 microT=70 G
  2. Oska Wellness: 1000 microT=10 G
  3. Vasindux Pet Mat: 50 micro tesla=.5 G

And the absolute lowest:
4. Assisi Pet Loop: .04 G

I get that more is not necessarily better but these ultra-lows seem extreme.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

#2

Can’t speak for Bob or anyone else but my wife and I put our A9 under her older cat’s bed on the highest setting for about 2 hours about 3-4 times, did an NAET acupressure session on him, put him on a cat digestive enzymes, and a cat probiotic. He had been diagnosed with terminal renal failure with 3 months to live. Instead, he lived 3.5 more years and died at the ripe old age of 17.5.

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#3

Fascinating. When you say “highest” you mean X setting? What coil configuration? How far away were the coils (considering bed thickness)? I use the stacked coils on X setting for my plantar fasciitis but my wife who is EMF sensitive can’t handle anything except Low power. As such we’re very confused by all these “new” ultra-low PEMF devices made specifically for pets thinking maybe because of much lower body mass than humans that they can’t handle higher energies…but then you, and also Bob’s old paralyzed dog video point to the success of much higher energies. Thanks for the feedback.

#4

Also, when you say “3-4 times”, do you mean total or per day…or per week? If 3-4 times total, why did you stop? Many testimonials I’ve read involve using it continuously for years for serious illnesses/injuries. Thanks!

#5

Well, it really is not about power (Gauss). The key things are the magnetic parameters dB/dt and pulse width. Technically, honestly, you can’t compare PEMF systems in a truly meaningful way by comparing Gauss. That would be like comparing cars by color, and concluding that red cars are “faster”.

With all of that being said, the devices you have listed are very low Gauss but tend to actually be higher power because they are about 500 times less efficient than ICES-PEMF. This is because Gauss is not the same thing as electrical power. It is like the difference between “speed” and “distance”, they are different things.

So, as a rule of thumb, the very low Gauss systems do not work well because they have other serious design flaws that also result in low Gauss levels. Think of it this way: they tend to not work well and have low Gauss levels because they are poorly designed, but this is not the same as saying that they do not work because their Gauss level is too low. Poor function and low Gauss stem from the same problem: bad design.

Nonetheless, these devices do work, somewhat, sometimes, and they may help your cat, or they may not. That is the main problem with poorly designed PEMF: it tends to be hit-or-miss.

As far as using our devices for your cat: I would use a medium or low setting, as many times each day as you want to apply it to your cat, for as long as you want to. If it irritates your cat, it will simply walk away. If this happens, try lowering the intensity level and try again later.

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#6

Hi Aaron–Bob’s reply above was tremendously helpful and reassuring but would still love to know what coil arrangement you did and if you treated 3-4 times total or per day…or per week. Thanks!

#7

Thank you!! Just got a quad coil and will start treating our cat today with my existing home-made quad. Will def provide updates and creatinine levels. Also am interested in getting the C5 for my wife’s CRPS/tendinosis but I remember reading somewhere you’re working on a new version (v7?) and wondering what the ETA is on that and if it will have advancements worth waiting for.

#8

years… or more.

I do not design for obsolescence then dangle shiny new stuff that is not really “new” in front of people to get them to pay more money for not-new products they do not really need every 12-14 months.

My next generation ICES-PEMF will be more like gen 6.5. The products will be based on current core ICES technology. The new products will not be functionally/biologically a huge improvement or more effective, but the packages might be more convenient for some uses, and the internal electronics will be about 15% more efficient. I will make improvements where I can, then prototype, test, re-prototype, test again, re-prototype, test extensively, if it is a real improvement (most changes are not) then develop a manufacturing strategy, get first articles of sub-assemblies, assemble, calibrate, test again, field-test for durability, then I need to do an exhaustive analysis of possible failure modes, try to anticipate every (and I mean every) possible way someone could use it wrong and possibly hurt themselves and/or destroy the device or other property, design and test around the possible hazards and errors, then try to set up to eventually build a few.

Normally this kind of activity is done by dozens of people over a 3 to 5 year period with any really new product. I have to do it entirely by myself. And I have several additional full- and part-time jobs. And so this process takes years. Or more.

So, my advice:

if you need it now

  • get it now
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#9

Got it. I thought you had a few people working with you now.

#10

One more question re: coil configuration and distance from the treatment target…

If I am using a quad (in the general area of the kidneys) what’s the maximum distance the coils can be placed and still be effective? For example; if placed on the wall of her cat bed approx 3"- 5" away from her body, will there still be a viable (if diminished) signal?

And would using it for longer periods, make-up for a less than optimal coil distance?

I’m trying to figure out the best way to approach this with a cat who doesn’t love to be held or manipulated (she’s a rescue with a rough past).

Thanks again Bob for your quick and detailed replies!

#11

Individual sensitivity varies considerably, so effective distance depends on a lot of variables you cannot know. But a good rule of thumb is that animals seem to be more sensitive than humans, and 4 to 5 inches seems to work most of the time for humans, so maybe 5 to 6 inches as a maximum for a cat… maybe. If the cat tolerates it well then it is probably not too high. And if creatinine levels stabilize or begin to drop then it is probably high enough.

Testing and adjusting dosage like this is how medical treatments work. As a rule, I would say that any PEMF (or other) product that has variable dosing and they tell you that the correct effective dose for you is X without making measurements or adjustments, then they are probably lying to you.

The way this sort of thing really works is very much like anything real, such as blood pressure medications. As an example (let’s not start a debate on the merits of these, this is just an example), there are about three common different blood pressure medications, each with several standard doses per tablet. Your physician puts you on one or more for a few weeks, measures your blood pressure again, adjusts your medication, you take it for a few weeks, get your blood pressure taken again, the medications are adjusted again, and so forth until your blood pressure is under control. This is how real things really work.

This is a lot like selecting coil position and intensity with PEMF. It does require trial, observation, and adjustment. In some cases you do not have a quantitative measurement, such as when dealing with pain, so you just have to go by how you feel. In other cases you can get labs done and then adjust based on solid numbers.

When someone tries to tell you that something with highly variable dosing and highly variable individual responsivity has a one-size-fits-all prescription, then you know that you are probably dealing with a scam, or an incompetent care giver.

But this is different from a good rule-of-thumb, just as a place to start, provided you understand that you need to observe and adjust as you go. And keeping the coils as close as you can, certainly within 6 inches, is a good place to start. Then adjust what you can, such as coil placement and pulse pattern, note the cat’s tolerance, and use what blood work or other data you can to try to dial in the optimal strategy.

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#12

I work mostly alone, mainly to keep costs down and keep on focus. Adding a new engineer/scientist to assist me would require me to raise prices by about 40%, for each new person hired (actually it would be more like +40%, +35%, +30%, …). That would put ICES-PEMF out of reach for many people, so I just do the extra work myself as well as I can.

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#13

Great thanks! Not having to place the coils directly on her body is a big help, especially having that 5"-6" buffer zone to work with. At any given time her body is usually within 3"- 5" inches away from the inside walls of her bed, so that gives me wiggle room to play around with dosing, distance, etc.

As for adjusting “pulse pattern” is that something that can be done on the A9? I don’t see any options like that, or are you referencing the C5?

#14

for the a9 you only have one pattern: Omni 8, which is the pattern that likely would be recommended for kidney or must pain inflammation and healing in general anyway :+1:t4:

Dr bob really has made the healing protocol available at the most basic model. our family and friends have benefited from the a9 alone!

thanks for your diligence and dedication to healing and helping the masses with your honest perspective and tech!

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#15

Thanks to all who contributed to my ‘cat w/ kidney disease’ thread. Apologies for this last late reply.

As to whether or not the treatments have helped, it’s hard to say. We’ve been treating her with an A9 double ring configuration (every other day on low setting for 1-2 hrs, directly over the kidneys or a few inches away). Her kidney values have come down slightly but this could also be a direct result of the special diet and medication she’s on according to her vet. She is on a low phosphorus diet and a vit D hormone treatment called Calcitriol (which is known to slow the progression of CKD).

We’ve been reluctant to treat at a higher setting for longer periods of time out of an abundance of caution as small animals are more sensitive and at this point these treatments are experimental.

Thanks again for all the input!