hi @Bob, i was wondering… would it be difficult to design coils to be acupuncture needles? or… is there a way to direct that pulse into needles for acupuncture? I’m not talking about a way to place coils at the acupuncture site. i just wonder what kind of benefits can be had using pulse delivering needles in acupuncture…
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I have thought about this quite a lot in the past. Technically it is feasible, but in the end i decided that it would not be an area that I focus on because the needles are invasive (puncture the skin), and the primary focus of my technology development is non-invasive PEMF. By adding it to a needle, it massively reduces the number of people who can use it and it opens a big can of worms for safety issues, licensing and training, and the list goes on and on.
But most importantly, there is no evidence that I know of that a physical needle would be more biologically effective than a focal PEMF field applied non-invasively.
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My acupuncturist sometimes attaches an alligator clip to an inserted needle and connects the alligator clip to a pulsating DC battery.
yes, and there are machines that are designed to do this with acupuncture needles and microcurrents. There are even special acupuncture needles designed for this.
The technical detail here is that while I think the use of one of our ICES-PEMF unit this way would probably work, the technical detail is that I do not directly generate the pulses you would want when placed in conductive contact with tissues. The way ICES-PEMF works is that it generates calibrated electric pulses to emit tuned magnetic pulses to transmit energy magnetically through dry tissues (skin) then transform those magnetic pulses back into microcurrents by electromagnetic induction deep within living (wet and conductive) tissues. So, you end up running the waveforms through a couple of differentiation transformations before it gets to the tissues.
So this approach (using acupuncture needles with ICES-PEMF pulses) would be using the calculus incorrectly. It would be sort of like trying to use an AM radio to pick up FM signals. If you really knew what you were doing, then maybe you could get it to work, but why bother? Why not just get an FM radio? If I was stranded on an isolated island, well, maybe. But you are way better off buying the correct technology for the job, in my opinion.
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Exactly, yes, very interesting; thanks Bob.
FYI I did try the coils on acupressure points for my mother’s lower back pain for about three weeks (she has scoliosis) – BL40, just below the knees, underside, intensity 6 with omni 8. I don’t know if it’s because it’s too soon to tell, but she hasn’t had any results from it.
If you’re interested in something that applies the energy directly to the skin and has a similar effect to the ICES, I’ve found that the RITM SCENAR meets that need. I prefer the ICES because I don’t feel it and it can go through clothing. The SCENAR I have is very effective for pain and it has an output where I can connect attachments.
Perhaps a pad with LED red or green light would be a better idea?
I think combining these various things is likely to be beneficial. But it is hard to say exactly how or why.
I practice acupuncture and have been playing around with ices for the last year on my self. I dont see signifcant benefit adding pemf to the needles over electroacupuncture as those systems already generate microcurrents. It definitely has advantages on spots that are dangerous to needle or could benefit from longer low intensity stimulation. Randomly selecting points or even by indication like low back pain doesnt work well because there are too many different factors in low back pain. Its rare for bladder 40 to be enough to treat someone. I actually found placing the coils together over the umbilicus to be pretty effective at treating multiple channels and can trigger the remote “qi” sensation in the arms and legs like acupuncture.
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Hi @NotOneNotTwo I’m an acupuncturist too, and currently considering purchasing the C5. I’m a newbie to the world of PEMF, so please pardon my ignorance on the topic. Did you say you tried using the coils with acupuncture? As in placing the needle in the middle hole of the coil? I was trying to figure out if there was a way to amplify the effect of the acupuncture needle with the micro pulses from the c5.
@Bob Would the magnetic field possibly change the depth at which the needle is placed? I have seen they normally say not to wear metal when using pemf devices, but I’m not sure if that’s only for high intensity devices.
Ultimately I need to experiment on myself for a while first, but if someone has tried this it would be great to hear their feedback. Thank you!
I have heard many incidental/anecdotal reports that PEMF, when combined with acupuncture, has a notable synergistic effect. I have not seen any scientific studies that support such statements with data. It seems to be very difficult to get a definitive scientific answer on the question of either PEMF or Acupuncture, and so the chances of finding anything definitive on the effects of both when combined are fairly low.
This, I think it is safe to say that we don’t have much (or any) solid data on the combined effects. So, I think this comes down to individual experiment and observation. Depending on nuance and technique, I could see how PEMF might change how acupuncture works, effect of different depths of needles, etc. I think an even larger effect would arise from tiny differences in the geometry of the point of the needle. But I have never seen any good studies on this topic. So, I think it would be difficult to nail down any generalities at this point.
As for using PEMF when wearing metal, theoretically this could cause a problem, but it seems in practice that low power PEMF does not cause any problems with metal jewelry or even implants. The higher power PEMF systems may cause unwanted heating, though, so it is important to be cautious.
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Thank you for the prompt reply @Bob. My question about the metal was more in reference to having acupuncture needles (made out of stainless steel) in close proximity to the c5 coils during treatment. I’ll send an email about ordering a c5 with the usb cable port that sticks out
Yes, the interaction of sharp metal points with electro-magnetic fields is actually very interesting. PEMF is unlikely to interact too much with the long shaft of the needle itself because of the geometry involved, but it would be expected to generate pretty large electromagnetic fields near the sharp point of the needle. I calculated this once, and the induced electric fields should be very large. They will be inversely proportional to the fourth power of the radius of the needle point, which is a very large number. This depends a bit on a number of other factors, but that is approximately correct. This works essentially like a lightning rod, which attracts lightning strikes because the sharp point at the tip of the lightning rod greatly amplifies the electric field of the surface of the Earth to which it is connected.
It’s actually a bit more complicated than the basic physics approximation because an acupuncture needle will be embedded in an electrical conductor (body fluids) which would be expected to dampen the effect of the electrical field concentration at the sharp radius of the needle tip.
I guess all of this essentially means that I have given the issue a fair amount of thought, I conclude that theoretically there should be a pretty significant interaction between PEMF and acupuncture needles especially at the tip of the needle, but unfortunately I don’t think anyone has actually studied this topic in detail. So, clinical effects end up being a matter of experiment and observation IMO.
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I woke up this morning specifically intending to ask a question about whether the application of the ICE PEMF coils might be perceptible at distal locations along the acupuncture channels that cross the point of application. I just ordered an M1 and look forward to trying this on myself. Thanks for mentioning it.