Hello everybody,
According to scientific researches, is combining NIR with PEMF at the same treatment session good?
I have the A9 device and I have recently got a mini device that uses RED & near infrared lights called Nano,
Is it fine to stick both devices and apply them together on the injury site " on the back for a herniated disc condition"??
Please I need a professional opinion.
Thanks.
Why not and what should be the contra-indication? My iMRS mat uses FIR and PEMF together and I think that is the best feature of this mat overall.
The relevant question would be if the Red/NIR device is capable enough for your condition.
Best,
Hans
From all the hundreds of photobiomodulation studies I have read, there appears zero reason to not do both at the same time.
In other words, I have done it many times and I think it is a great concurrent stack.
Are you talking about photobiomodulation (PBM)? I’ve done some research into different devices. Two main types that promote healing: 650 nm and infrared 850 nm. There are others along similar wavelengths but these are the most common.
You also have to look at intensity. My friend bought a $50 cheap device from China, hoping to treat his PD, but the box specifically said for cosmetic treatment (wrinkles, age spots, skin surface treatment, etc), but nothing deep.
Problem is PD is due to inflammation in the brain, so you need intensity strong enough to penetrate deep into the brain. The only way is through the nostrils, so a nasal insert with the highest intensity.
Thirdly, you can’t do combos: treat with 660 nm red light and then switch to 850 nm infrared afterwards, but don’t do them both together. Apparently, mitochondria responsible for cellular healing gets confused when you do both at the same time.
Also, beware of over- or under-doing. 25-30 minutes of each light twice a day separated by at least eight hours and should be during or immediately after meals.
One other thing to keep in mind: red light needs to shine directly on the skin. With infrared, it will penetrate through clothing, but not red light.
I bought myself a PBM set device to treat my fibromyalgia. First day, didn’t feel any different, but 3rd day, wow, huge difference. Pain dropped from 7-9 down to 2-4. What’s more, due to lack of melatonin sleep hormone, I used to average 3-4 hours of sleep but the PBM increased my sleep quality so I could sleep through most of the night and average between 5-7 hours of sleep.
And yes, I do combine both PEMF and PBM together or separately depending on my needs, no problem at all. Studies suggest you can get better results this way, though I can’t say there is a noticeable difference for me, but nevertheless there’s no detriment either. Metaphorically, instead of single bullets, I attack my condition with all guns blazing!
One thing to keep in mind: this is not a quick fix. Everyone responds differently: for some it may take a few days to see a difference, other maybe several weeks. For me, I was fortunate to notice in just a few days, but on the other hand I still have good and bad days, just fewer bad days than before, plus less intense pain and faster recoveries.
Another detriment, two hours of PBM takes up a lot of time especially since therapy must center around meal times.
And lastly, shop for quality. When I was researching PBM, I found the range of quality can vary vastly. Look for something with 2-3 year warranty and see which part of the body it can target. Even in one company, depending on the device if they sell more than one, they can vary in quality.
I’m no expert, but because these devices can get pretty pricey so I’ve done some reading and shopped around thoroughly to ensure I was getting the right thing.
Hope this helps.
Never read about that. Do you have more information on this aspect?
Also a cursory search did nor reveal anything like that to me. Most important may be the intensity windows: 3–10 J/cm². Also the combination seems to be best for cytochrome C activity.
As mentioned before, I am no expert, this is only what I have been reading/researching for my personal needs. That may not be applicable across board for everyone. As for avoiding combos, the reason given was because the mitochondria responsible for rebuilding/healing/cellular reconstruction gets confused by combos, better to do red light/infrared separately.
Yes, it’s much more (twice more) time consuming and I would prefer to do combos if given the choice, but what I do know is that not doing combos does appear to work for me.
What’s more there is a one year-warranty on the belt that I use across my tummy to help with IBS and pain, and when it started to act wonky, I had to get a replacement (free because it was still under warranty), and after a few days waiting for the replacement, my fibro flares suddenly increased back to original intensity. I did try to offset with other PBM and PEMF, but did not see much improvement until I got my replacement.
Nevertheless, I’m still not back to full improvement as before. As I said, this is NOT a quick fix. But it makes me quite anxious. The warranty unfortunately is just for one year, company from Australia, and first time I purchased, it took several weeks to arrive, partly due to getting across the border and paying a hefty border tax on it. But that scares me that it went wonky on me with just a few months of use and no extended warranty on it. These devices are very pricey to begin with, and knowing my health is dependent on it makes me all the more anxious: since there is no cure for my condition which means I am forced to depend on this for health maintenance for the rest of my life. What a way to live!
Thanks for the feedback!
Issue (for me) is, that I find this confusing. In reality the skin / mitochondria gets “full spectrum” sunlight, not singular frequency light which is totally unnatural! Also short research did not reveal anything like that.
As for cures: I am sure that redlight, PEMF and all there is regarding technology and supplements is never a cure. Those things only provide building blocks, at best, so that the body can heal itself, if there is not another issue, blockade or deficit that inhibits that.
Best,
Hans
Yes, I hear you, and what you’re saying makes logical sense. Give me a few days to find the information where I read about this and I will get back to you.
My FM is quite severe and with chronic fatigue as a major symptom, I can only manage one task a day without risking more fibro flares. Plus, PBM therapy really takes up a large chunk of my waking hours…
I, too have had training with Laser experts, and there is no contra-indication for using both wavelengths at the same time. Mitochondria do not get confused. They use the photons that they neeed.
Professionals have told me up to 3x’s/day with a 3-5 hours break between is fine.
Okay, regarding mitochondria and lights, I got in touch with the person from whom I bought the PBM device for treating my FM, asked her what studies support use of wavelengths applied separately or in combo. Here’s what she has to say:
Work from the Mitrofanis laboratory in University of Sydney showed that two wavelengths in sequence had a better effect than either on its own or both shone together. This makes biological sense because in the mitochondrial wall, there are different proteins that each respond to different wavelengths. If more than one protein is stimulated at the same time, then the mitochondria would be faced with competing chemical changes resulting from the multiple protein activity following the light pulse. It would be confusing.
It makes even more sense when you know that 670nm is a specific wavelength that has a specific effect on cells, especially neurones. 670nm penetrates through the skull and into the outer part of the brain. While 810nm does penetrate further, at-cell, the 670nm is far more effective in stimulating mitochondrial activity, and there’s a reason for that.
670nm is a wavelength that cells - including brain cells - use themselves to communicate with other cells. These light signals are called biophotons. If a cell sends a tiny burst of 670nm, it is associated with cell health. Cell one sends a 670nm burst to cell 2 to say that cell 1 is feeling well and happy. It is possible that cell 1 sends the burst to cell 2 to help an ailing cell 2.
The existence of biophotons is only recently been discovered, so we don’t know a huge amount about them. It does explain, though, why 670nm is so universally effective.
Here’s a blog post describing the impact of biophotons on sleep, and a link to a journal article.
Sunlight has all the spectrum with the red and near infrared predominating in the late afternoon and evening. All wavelengths in the sunlight spectrum are useful, but the work from the Mitrofanis laboratory shows that some wavelengths are more important than others.
So I asked about Mitrofanis, from my understanding, John Mitrofanis is a reputable neuroscientist, professor of anatomy and neuroscience at the University of Sidney/University of Western Australia and he has published a number of peer-reviewed studies on PBM on PD, brain neuroprotection and animal models.
Even though most of the PBM studies have used combined wavelengths successfully, Mitrofanis suggests using them separately produces better outcomes so the signals don’t get mixed up, since each wavelength is absorbed by the mitochondria differently. However, this is not mainstream practice and there is no universal consensus since regardless of combo or separately used, PBM still produces beneficial results.
Thanks for the extensive reply.
I think that the Biophotons are simplified. They are old (discovered > 100 years back) and not much is known. They are not pure IR-impulses nor single spectrum IR light. They also have a modulation, certain spin, etc. - which we do not know.
The study the blog-post of the author referenced states:
“The biophoton emissions have a rather broad range of wavelengths, from ultraviolet to red and near infrared range (i.e., λ = 200–950 nm), the latter being within the range of photobiomodulation. It is not clear whether biophoton emissions from the mitochondria initially formed by accident, as a byproduct of metabolic activity, or by design, serving a specific purpose. Either way, all neurones may have evolved the biophoton network to communicate and for repair”
Nevertheless, there could be s certain effect of sequencing the IR emission.
I went into my IR/FIR-sauna itself and checked the LED module from a radiaesthetic pespective:
Because of optics I need to have distance to the panel to get maximum benefit. In the end I think its all multifactoral - depends on what you look 