@Bob If I understand correctly, we can measure micro-current flow across the cell membrane but not along it? So is there no measurable micro-current flowing across the cell membrane with pemf?
What about cell voltage…can we measure that? If so, can we measure the cell or tissue voltage before and after broadcasting pemf to it ?
yes, that is my understanding. The way this is done now is using a method called patch clamping:
This new electrophysiological tool won the inventors the Nobel Prize in 1991. But it only measures voltage and ion flow across a membrane, not along a membrane surface. In fact, it is precisely because it is so effective at isolating and measuring across membrane voltage and ion flow that it completely shuts out the signals I hypothesize act along the membrane surface when PEMF is applied.
And by the way, this is not something where anyone just blithely “gives it a try”.
It takes months of intensive training just to get to the point where you stand a slim chance of being lucky enough to get one signal, maybe. Many people try to learn the technique, spend months on it, and can never really do it.
After a huge amount of very careful, skillful work, this one technique lead to a much deeper understanding of the importance of membrane ion channels in cellular physiology, which lead to further Nobel prize - level work.
This is why I believe that the discovery of the real mechanism that underlies PEMF will basically require at least 2 Nobel prizes, maybe more.
At least one Nobel Prize would be awarded for the scientific instrument itself, because it ill open up an entirely new field of cell science.
And at least one additional Nobel prize would be awarded for using this new instrument to elucidate the new and presently not detectable mechanism(s) by which PEMF actually works at the cellular level.
As far as using patch clamping to measure cellular voltage changes when using PEMF, that would be at best a secondary measure of the effect of PEMF, not a direct measure of the mechanism.
The amount of real, hard, precise scientific work that will be needed to invent this new tool and sort out this new aspect of biology will be many lifetimes of serious, dedicated work. I am pretty sure we are not going to arm-chair science this one. This is why the subject (mechanisms of PEMF) remains so wide open to wild speculation. We are a very long way from understanding it in my opinion. Most people do not even understand what they need to understand to begin to develop an understanding of what we do not yet know. So charlatans run wild.
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Here is a link of Dr. Mercola interviewing Dr. Zachary Bush MD of Charlottesville West Virginia.
One of the most highly regarded MD’s in North America.
Here he also talks about the Phase Angle measurement.
Range 3.5-10
Death at 3.5
Cancer patients <4.5.
Healthy patient over 7.
A very worthwhile interview from a Brilliant doctor.
He runs the M Clinic in Charlottesville Virgina.
There I was measured for my Phase Angle and was first introduced to the PEMF concept.
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@Bob
I listened to whole interview and Zach is certainly knowledgable and wholistic oriented. However I have not been able find any mention in the interview or on his website about pemf, and he even has a video on his website where he talks about the value of biohacking. Dr. Mercola is a daily ices user, but he didn’t even ask Dr. Bush about the subject of pemf? I wonder what’s going on here? Is the subject too hot to handle for MDs in public since pemf has only limited fda approval? And I suppose MDs are not allowed to recommend it for uses that are not fda approved?
You say you were introduced to pemf at Dr. Bush’s clinic in virginia? Please elaborate. Where can I find him mention pemf anywhere on the web?
It may be that, or it may be that there are a lot of useful things they do not have time or inclination to talk about. I do not know.
I remember you saying something like pemf was the missing link or the other half of medicine. In the short time I have been using ices, I have already begun to feel the same. So I guess I’m trying to understand why alternative medical people of such renown are not shouting about it from the rooftops.
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That is an excellent question. A few of them are, but there are many competing voices and not all of them are really intended to help people in real need.
My current belief is that PEMF is the missing half of medicine, literally. When I estimate the number of conditions it could treat, and the number of people affected, in my opinion PEMF has the potential to approximately double the number of conditions/injuries that can be treated effectively worldwide. I honestly find this hard to believe, but that is the result I calculate. Perhaps I have made a mistake.
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Since pemf promotes healing at the cellular level, and not just locally but also systemically in my experience, I would say your calculation is way too conservative.
You are correct. My assessment is conservatively below what I say publicly, mainly because I do not ever want to over-state my case. That would not be helpful for anyone.
If you actually assess pulsed electro-magnetism for its broadest potential value, you find that it goes well beyond just health and medicine. The scope of it is quite impressive and difficult to grasp, even after having studied it for more than 2 decades.
Nonetheless, I am willing to go on record, publicly, and state that, if properly employed, the intelligent use of PEMF has the potential to double the effective scope of modern medicine as practiced in Western Medicine in the industrialized world. I am confident that is a responsible understatement that will stand the test of time.
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At the M clinic, I received the most most complete medical care that I had ever experienced. Their website does not mention all their treatments.
They gave me two non-invasive physics based tests that blew my mind with their accuracy. I also saw The legendary homeopathic guru Dr. Ralph Murphy at the M clinic, who also prescribed helpful supplements, homeopathic remedy, detox… Tai Chi and a PEMF full body mat.
Part of my treatment included an initial PEMF strap therapy around my knee.
Hi Bob, it seems that their website does not mention many of their treatments. PEMF, magnesium baths… etc.
My best guess based on the practitioners I know: they have to stay below-the-radar with the full scope of what they offer.
Another possible option: they want people to seek them for comprehensive treatment, but not just to pick and choose individual treatments they are looking for. Most of the responsible clinicians I know use PEMF and most other modalities as part of a more comprehensive approach.
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thanks for sharing. This forum is open to talking about other pemf devices etc, so would you care to share more from layman view about these physics based tests, maybe some results that surprised you, and what pemf strap and mat was used or recommended?
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After visiting the ,"M clinic " I changed my focus from the science of the “omics” to expanding my physics knowledge and how physics based medicine , specifically PEMF could be used in my treatment.
I wish that I had studied engineering and physics in addition to pharmacy.
After researching the field for several months , I realized that spending $6000 on a mat when the technology was so old, was not the best utilization of scarce resources. I was familiar with Moore’s law.
I came across your videos on Youtube and was impressed with your qualifications, background and most of all your honesty and sincerity. The M1 device, proved to be the most useful intervention in years, so I bought a C5 machine.
Thank-you to you, your wife and Dr. T, for making this technology available to people like myself , especially to your wife for answering all my questions so well and for your participation at this forum. I look forward to learning much more about this incredible technology and how it can benefit people with various chronic conditions.
PEMF ICES has helped me improve in so many ways.
I am very interested to see how my mostly “subjective” improvements, measure against
,“Objective test” improvements and if they can be replicated in others with similar success.
Bob, could PEMF potentially help increase the cells voltage(ability to pull in liquids) ?
Secondly have you heard of people uaing PEMF improving their Phase Angle scores ?
I’ll answer each question separately.
1 - PEMF increase cell voltage? Short answer: Maybe indirectly by improving cell function. My impression is that the discussions of “cell voltage” are based on a lot of fraudulent and pseudo-scientific claims made by electro-medicine charlatans. The physiology is way more nuanced than any statements such as “more voltage = more health”, and cells do not really act like batteries in the way frequently described in this context.
This is all very, very complex, but briefly: a living cell has active transport mechanisms and complex, multi-layered mechanisms to regulate trans-membrane potential. Too much trans-membrane potential can be as damaging as not enough. A sick cell may have inhibited trans-membrane potential, and if “something” fixes that basic problem, then that same “something” would indirectly also be increasing the trans-membrane potential back to normal levels. This is what I mean by “maybe, indirectly”. If PEMF corrects some problem, then normal electro-physiology may also be restored as a consequence.
But in my technical opinion, PEMF does not “charge” cells like a battery as people sometimes claim. All that is required is that PEMF restore normal function, and the rest takes care of itself.
2- Phase angle scores improved by PEMF? Short answer: I speculate probably YES, but no one has specifically told me they have seen this effect. I use a very precise technical definition of “phase angle” that is the same as used by electrical engineers and physicists. I think some people may be using this term incorrectly, but applied correctly I believe it refers to bioelectrical impedance, in which the phase angle results from a change in the electrical reactance (also a well-defined electrical physics term), which is measured by applying a sine wave across the tissue, and measuring the resulting phase shift in the sine wave. I am not an expert on this topic, but evidently the phase shift is influenced by several biological factors related to gender and age and ill-health (mostly hydration as I understand it), so it is a real quantity that can be measured. Once again, I am not an expert, but I would speculate that, if PEMF somehow restores a state of normal function to cells and tissues, that these “biological factors” that cause phase angle changes normally attributed to age and ill-health may be corrected, and thus the resulting phase angle may be improved.
The effect may be indirect, for example: PEMF may do something to correct a problem. We do not know much about the direct mechanisms of PEMF, so for the moment let’s assume this is unknown. But let’s further assume it results in improved function at the cellular level. This in turn may improve the ability of tissues to be hydrated. This may simply be because of a change in the state of inflammation, or some other mechanism. Improved hydration leads to a change on phase angle. So, the effect of PEMF on phase angle would be indirect, but important.
Like I say, I am not an expert on bioelectrical impedance analysis, but this is interesting enough to me that I will look into it more. It may be an important biomarker of the effects of PEMF on living systems. Thanks.
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Thank-you for your answer Bob.
I need to have another Phase angle test done.
Similarly I am interested to see if I incidentally might have improved my results on the GDV test and Viome(micro-gut bacteria at the strain level) tests.
My general thought on this is that PEMF acts through mechanisms broadly related to general health and cellular function. When these are improved, almost every specific assessment of health will improve.
In my opinion, it is sort of like eating the right amounts of really healthy food. What gets better? Well, probably everything.
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Hi Prometheus, I will answer each question separately in reverse order.
The Bemer system was used. It is allegedly used in thousands of medical offices worldwide, and has over 1 million users and claims to have allot of ,"research " behind it. I rented a Bemer mat for 2 weeks and felt incredible. My energy levels seem to increase and my moods as well. My sleep also seem to improve. I was also dogsitting a sick dog with spinal stenosis, who seemed to show improvement.
I never had access to the light, which people claim might make your skin look younger. It is a cool gadget that comes with special glasses to protect the eyes.
Had money been no concern, I would have bought one.
They are relatively much easier to use than an M1 or C5 and do provide allot of support.
Several credible doctors view the Bemer as a safe and slow way for patients to treat many chronic conditions.
The Bemer videos do show what seems to be a credible and significant increase in micro-vascular blood flow. (Basically blood flow in the very small veins that bring oxygen and nutrients to much of the body).
Increasing Oxygen flow as you have stated in a different post, is potentially very beneficial in many conditions.
They also claim to increase Nitric Oxide. Basically a very useful chemical that can amongst many things help with ,“erections”.(like viagra)
The Bemer system comes with many bells and whistles and built in protections and protocols to prevent people from hurting themselves.
Typically your average patient is not a biohacker, and listens blindly to what Dr’s tell them.
I prefer the M1 PEMF-ICES over the Bemer, both from a technologically and cost perspective. While the Bemer company has done allot to promote PEMF, their goal of having a mat in every household might not be realistic.
If the Bemer mat had cost $1000, then its fully body mat with strap and cool light application might be worthwhile.
Technology doubles according to a man called Moore, every 18 months or 2 years.
During this time the cost to produce that technology decreases by half.
If that were true, I reasoned why has that mat increased in price?
If you want to know more about the Bemer please ask, I spent months researching it.
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