Flux Health Forum

Adenosine & Intensity

Recently, a very well-respected doctor in the PEMF field, who consistently points out how important is intensity, advised me to get a PEMF device that can output at least 3000 Gauss (6000 would be better) in order to reach the appropriate levels of intensity in the hip joint (at least 15 G).

Why 15 G? Because, according to one study, that intensity allowed the A2A adenosine receptors to become saturated after 30 minutes of treatment. This appears to be very important for reducing inflammation. See this article for a more complete treatment of the topic: PAIN, INFLAMMATION, ADENOSINE AND PEMF THERAPY. I realize this is just one mechanism by which healing may occur and that there may be others that require lower intensities. I also understand fairly well that according to Bob Dennis’ research, slew rate is the most important factor, and I have read many times in many places that he puts much less emphasis on intensity (though there must be some importance, as per the use of the deep field coil arrangement).

Thoughts?

Is it possible to achieve these results (adenosine saturation) with the B5/C5?

(Besides intellectual curiosity, the reason I’m asking is because, like most, finances are very much an issue, so I can’t necessarily afford products that would offer intensities of 3-7kG; however, if it would mean a significantly better outcome, I would be very willing to go into some debt to potentially repair my full-thickness and near-full thickness chondral loss on the weightbearing surface of the hips and dyplastic changes of the acetabulums. At this point, the only other option is stem-cell (BMAC) injections since I’m only 37.)

1 Like

Well… unfortunately this is a very technical topic and it is impossible to answer with a few paragraphs of text. I have treated this subject in great detail in numerous YouTube videos, technical papers, etc.
Briefly: Most of the published scientific literature on this topic entirely misses the key electro-magnetic parameters and the fact is that most PEMF manufacturers over-state and distort the performance of their products by a factor of 10x to 100x. That is simply a fact and it is well known among people who design PEMF systems, but it is bad marketing, so very few are willing to publicly state the brutal truth.
Practical result: most doctors just crank-it-up to try to squeeze some performance out of a poorly-designed PEMF system, and they find that they only get reasonably reliable results when they use high power. Therefore, without understanding the physics beyond a wikipedia-level understanding, most PEMF clinicians are convinced that high-power is necessary. It is extremely inefficient, but can be effective.
As a consequence, when a doctor uses a high-intensity PEMF setting, they get pulled down several misleading paths because they have to more or less believe the settings that are on the PEMF product. And trust me, it gets even far more complex than this when you start wrestling with the math.
Bottom line: there is no way to calculate what you need for any particular PEMF application because we lack the reliable biological and physical measures and mechanistic understanding to do so. The only way to know for sure is to try a system and see for yourself. Individual variation has much more of an influence on what works than just pure “Gauss” level.
If you have found a PEMF system that works for you, then I suggest you stick with it. or you try others. But you cannot know until you actually try, and any PEMF marketer who tells you otherwise is really just telling you what you want to hear to get you to write a check. We can’t honestly assure any specific biological response for any specific injury for any one individual.

4 Likes

Hello, you may try looking at this website where you can rent very expensive systems to try them out before buying. There’s also a lot of good information about some PEMF myths. https://www.drpawluk.com/

@stevienix Thanks for the recommendation. Actually I had a consultation with him, and he is the one who recommended the 3kG+ systems. I took a look at renting, but it would probably make more sense for me to buy and then return the product within the 30-day window if the product doesn’t work. (The fee is less, and if it does work, it would be better to keep it and continue using it.)

The one I’m looking at (C… Flash) actually doesn’t have a rental option either. I thought this might be the best bet because as was mentioned in the consultation, it is one of the best Gauss/$ machines out there. I also thought that given its short pulse it might have a very fast slew rate offering benefits similar to what Dr. Dennis has found beneficial in his studies. Thus I could potentially find a happy medium between what the two authorities in the field that I trust recommend: high intensity (Dr. Pawluk) and fast slew rate (Dr. Dennis). But I couldn’t find really find any solid facts on the Flash’s slew rate other than that it is more than 50 T/s in one of their other lower intensity products, which is higher than the minimum threshold described by Dr. Dennis, but less than the M1 (which I am currently using).

1 Like

@Bob Thanks a lot for the reply! I’ve watched nearly all the videos and podcasts listed on the micro-pulse site and noted your allusions to this. I have not watched many of the more technical videos on your YouTube channel, but hope to watch more of these someday (though how much I will be able to understand is questionable :slight_smile: ).

I see what you’re saying as to why the results regarding intensity (and other parameters) may be completely skewed. I briefly read through the study mentioned and they stated that “The treatment with different intensity of PEMFs reveals that lower intensity [.2 and .5 mT] does not determine alteration in binding parameters. On the contrary, when the magnetic intensity is used in the range 1 - 3.5 mT a significant increase of adenosine A2A density is demonstrated.” (Vareni, et al, 2002) This seems to be pretty useful info, but if the pulse generator they used (IGEA’s Biostim device) was off by a factor of 10 or 100, I guess the results are not quite as useful, maybe not worthless, but…

A couple questions:

  1. Can’t scientists conducting these studies test the field strength of the pulse generator using Gaussmeters? And wouldn’t that be standard fare to make sure instruments are correctly calibrated? (My science is pretty weak, so I definitely might be wrong… on a lot of stuff)
  2. Do you have any studies in which you test weather field strength makes a difference. (I’ve see/heard you talking about studies in which slew rate made a significant difference.)

I understand what you’re saying as well that we just don’t understand enough yet to make anything close to a guarantee. It’s a pity I don’t have the funds to play around with different devices :). Perhaps a PEMF device arcade in the area would be useful. Maybe I’ll do that someday… :slight_smile:

That’s why I’m also wondering if the C5 will be able to penetrate to where it’s needed in the hip joint (though maybe not at such high intensities as the study mentioned as they may be moot). I’d much rather use a C5 (obviously because of the price), but I also have more confidence in the engineering of your devices and I appreciate the precision with which you engineered them. That said, I understand very well that we can only guess at outcomes.

Cool! Well please keep us in the loop whatever you dođź‘Ť

This is a great example of what you can find in the scientific literature, thanks. These kinds of papers are useful, but the real nuggets of information can be tricky to extract.

To begin with, most biomedical scientists do not do a thorough job of calibrating and characterizing their scientific instruments. I know this because I have spent much of my career as a scientific instrument designer, and I have helped dozens of labs correct their experiments and their resulting data by building and characterizing new scientific instruments for them. I have several patents related to this. Getting good biological measurements is very difficult to do, and it is well beyond the knowledge and skill of most biomedical scientists. It is true (but somewhat sad) that even companies that specialize in a particular biomedical instrument do not even fully understand their technology. I have been a consultant for many dozens of biomedical (and other) companies where they hired me to help them figure out how to get their device/product to actually work properly. I have done this over a wide range of technologies, from medical robotics, blood testing devices, physiological instruments, pulmonary and cardiac function, as well as numerous automotive and aerospace technologies. The fact is, many scientists simply do not really know how their devices and instruments really work.

This is a huge problem, and it contributes to what is called the “replicability crisis”, or reproducibility crisis in modern medical research. You can read all about this problem in a recent book titles “Rigor Mortis” by Richard Harris (an NPR reporter). It describes the fact that, when we take the time to check carefully, as much as 75% to 89% of modern biomedical research may be deeply flawed and can not be reproduced because it is basically wrong. I have also been studying this for years and my scientific assessment is that these numbers are actually even worse than reported, but that is the subject of another long and detailed explanation.

For now, let’s start with two basic and critical observations:
1 - Most scientists do not fully understand their scientific instruments, and often they do not fully characterize or calibrate them.
2 - Most scientific papers are wrong, Even if peer-reviewed, the rate of error can be almost 90%. And the problem is that we do not know which 10% is correct. So, you really need to know what you are doing when you read scientific papers, and you also need to look at the results from many papers done independently. A single scientific paper rarely can be relied upon with confidence.

With those observations in mind, let’s take the examples you have presented.
Let’s assume for the moment that they are actually able to get a reproducible effect (doubtful, but let’s assume it for now). Was it due to magnetic intensity, or something else, some other parameter they did not even measure? Let me explain:
They probably did not fully characterize the shape of the magnetic pulse. Very few papers take the trouble to do so. But the pulse shape is important. If the pulsing nature of the waves was unimportant, and the effect were just due to magnetic field strength, then they could just use a solid magnet, no electronics, and they would see the effect. But generally this is not the case. Pulsatile magnetic fields do matter. So the first thing they need to do is clearly describe the pulse. But unfortunately, this is almost never done in a scientific paper.
If they do not know the shape of the pulses, then they can make simple errors. Lets take the simple example of a triangle wave pulse. Lets assume (as is usually the case) that the base of the triangle wave remains constant as they increase the strength (magnetic field strength). So, when they turn up the power, they generate a triangle that is taller, but not wider. If only high-strength fields (tall triangles) have the effect, whereas short triangles (weaker peak magnetic fields) do not, then they conclude that intensity (Gauss) is key.
But this is probably not the case, because the principle electromagnetic effects would arise from dB/dt, the slope of the magnetic wave, not its height. So, as the triangles get taller, the slope gets steeper, and they confuse one (Gauss) with the other (dB/dt). I am pretty sure this is what is happening. I have done many experiments to verify this is often the case.
I could go on writing many more pages about this, but the fact is you would need to know some real math and physics to be able to prove it to yourself.

Another problem is that when they say the magnetic field is a certain Gauss level, they rarely point out exactly how and where this was measured. This is a huge error, because magnetic fields drop off much more quickly that other fields, such as light. You experience this every time you play with magnets: they are only strong when they get very close; otherwise you can hardly feel the attraction or repulsion of magnets. This is because magnetic fields drop off very quickly:
Light drops off as an inverse square: 1/r^2
Magnets drop off as an inverse cube (on axis): 1/r^3, and even more dramatically when you move off the magnetic axis, usually about 1/r^4
Therefore, it is very common to have a high magnetic field in one location, and almost nothing just a centimeter or two further away.
Most people who study and report on the biological effects of pulsed magnetic fields never consider any of the details I have just described above, and there are others to consider as well.

And that is just the problems with the one measurement of the magnetic pulse. There are other problems entirely unrelated to that, such as the high variability of almost all biological measurements. That is another topic.

Keeping all of this in mind, let me try to answer your questions:
Your questions were:

  1. Can’t scientists conducting these studies test the field strength of the pulse generator using Gaussmeters? And wouldn’t that be standard fare to make sure instruments are correctly calibrated? (My science is pretty weak, so I definitely might be wrong… on a lot of stuff)
  2. Do you have any studies in which you test weather field strength makes a difference. (I’ve see/heard you talking about studies in which slew rate made a significant difference.)

Answer #1: no, they almost never make this meausrement, and standard Gauss meters can not even measure the slope of a magnetic field, only its peak intensity. I had to build and calibrate my own test meter for this purpose, and we use it to test and calibrate every device we sell. But these devices do not exist commercially, so no PEMF manufacturers and no biomedical scientists use them, unless they build one for themselves.
Answer#2:Yes, I have tested this many, many times, and the answer that I keep finding is: what matters is dB/dt and pulse width. Peak Gauss does not matter directly. It is an indirect consequence of multiplying slope by distance. But waveforms with less slope but equal intensity do not have the same biological effects.

These are very difficult experiments to do and you have to build your own scientific instruments to do them. That is why no one does them.

2 Likes

@Bob Got it. Thank you for the excellent explanation. The reasons for error make good sense. I am probably missing something in my simplistic understanding of physics, but it also makes sense to me that one would not require a very high intensity in the pulsed EM field to enact the rheobase requirements for different tissues (if that is in fact how PEMFs act beneficially upon the body as you surmise). Just guessing, but seems like a reasonable assumption that cellular functions wouldn’t require all that much intensity (maybe mV).

That’s why I’m wondering so much about intensity. Via your explanation and videos, I understand that intensity is very like not of any direct import. But we do need a certain minimum intensity (guessing that is very low) to meet a tissue’s rheobase requirements, right?

My main question: Is it likely that I will be able to meet that intensity requirement(on axis and to some extent off) if I am treating hip joints with the M1 and C5? What dept of penetration can I reasonably assume in order for potential tissue stimulation? I know these numbers would be guesses and that it depends on if I’m using coils singularly or on opposite sides or in deep field configuration. (I have seen the diagrams of the fields in those configurations.)

My opinion, based on my direct personal experience: it reaches adequately to the deepest regions of the hip joint. This is especially true if you use the Deep Field Coils with a C5. I can honestly (and very happily) say that my left hip joint degeneration problems have almost entirely disappeared by doing so for the past 2-3 months as I describe elsewhere.

The rest of your comments seem correct to me. The physics of electromagnetism are not really all that simple, and this is a difficult subject even for physics and electrical engineering majors in college, even after years of preparation. So do not feel bad about it that this is not all perfectly obvious.

Added to that, we definitely do not have a good understanding of how classical magnetism interacts with living tissue. And living tissue also interacts with itself to send signals throughout the organism, so it is impossible to say whether local effects are limited to the single location where they are applied. For example, sunlight on your skin generates vitamin D that acts throughout your body and in your deepest bone tissue, even though the ultraviolet light that drives the process only penetrates to a depth on the order of a millimeter of skin.

1 Like

Great! Thanks for the opinions! I’ll check out your posts on hip joints.

I see what you mean about systemic effects. Seems like that would make sense particularly with regard to inflammation and blood (nutrient) flow.