Thanks for the clear response. I am using both M1s 12-18 hours per day. I am still trying to decide if I need to buy a higher gauss pemf to use on my bad kidneys. Pawluk has said it takes 1850(?) gauss to penetrate the 9 inches through my kidneys. I read on this forum about the guy that used ICES for his kidneys but his results sounded “maybe but inconclusive”.
Well, there is a lot of bad scientific data out there, and sometimes it leaks into clinical practice. The need for high Gauss levels is a misinterpretation and misunderstanding of basic science. It is not about “Gauss”, and has never been about Gauss. It is about the differential equations related to the change of magnetic field (Gauss) per unit time. The result: manufacturers who make crude and inefficient PEMF have no other option but to resort to high Gauss levels which eventually drive the system into a biologically effective range. But the excess energy and inefficiency can easily be 98% or higher by this crude method.
Also, PEMF, properly applied, has regional effects and does not require a specific “Gauss” at a specific point.
But they keep droning on about the need for “Gauss”, thinking that repetition forces something that is false to eventually become true. But it does not.
The real, short-term effect though is that if they can just get people to drink the cool-aide, they can charge a lot of money for crude, inefficient PEMF systems. That much is real, and it is true.
My opinion: use an efficient PEMF system, apply the coils properly (probably stacked, NOT 2x2 arrays), and do this at higher levels of power on a setting such as Omni8 or Alpha Wave for as many hours as you can during the day. Simple dosage guidelines are not really relevant with PEMF: long duration/low intensity seems to have much better long term effects than short duration/high intensity. Crucially, get real lab testing done to make sure you see an effect.
A much larger, less efficient, but vastly more costly PEMF system may also work, or it may not. Individual responses to PEMF vary (as they do for everything else)
and just for the record… the “maybe but inconclusive” post on this forum says a lot about the honesty here. Other “user testimonials” are generally always positive and typically solicited or even posted by a group of paid sock-puppets.
For example, one competing PEMF system (a low-quality copy of our systems) has a stable of Chinese workers posing as “verified customers” who will tell you anything you need to hear to get you to make a purchase. But on this forum, you usually get the ugly truth: the effects are often very impressive, but sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.
I hope I did not write something that seemed disrespectful. I have the upmost respect for your accomplishments and comments. In fact, there is only one other health related person that I trust as much as you regarding my health. I won’t bore you with my health issues but 4 years ago doctors told me I would not live this long. The medical profession almost killed me but but my research and presistence has paid off and I am now much better. ICES, correct diet, correct supplements and correct exercise have turned everything around for me. I said “correct” because there is a lot of crap science on the internet. It has taken me 4+ hours of research daily to discover the “correct” part. Regarding ICES, if I use it for my kidneys, I will need to buy 2 A9s or 2 more M1s. I need the other 2 M1s for other conditions. Instead of that I could buy a more powerful system. I don’t care which it is. I just want to buy the most effective for my kidneys because I don’t want to spend my last years on dialysis. I understand the difference of opinion between you and Pawluk. I think Pawluk has good intentions. I know you do. I have heard/read both of you say that ideally a person should have both a low power(ICES) and higher power system(something Pawluk sells). That statement is what prompted me to consider a more powerful system.
Regarding your back issues. I know you take magnesium. I have taken several different magnesium supplements but none worked as needed until I discovered the only one that is 100% absorbable within 2-4 hours. Forgive me if you know the following which MDs don’t know…Other magnesium supplements are only 4-20% absorbable and give you diarrhea above 300-500 mg daily. The one I take ReMag is 99.9% absorbable. With your back condition, my wife’s(she was on fentynal for years for her back) and my conditions, we need 1200+ mg daily until our magnesium stores are optimal. The Dr serum magnesium tests are worse than no test because only 5% of your magnesium is in serum. The rest is in your cells. Your serum often tests ok or even high when the cells are deficient. The ION test is the best for magnesium but it is only available at universities. The next best is the red blood cell(RBC) test which can be gotten through RequestATest. com. We all need to get our RBC level to 6-6.8. I was at 4.2 and my wife’s was 4.3 when we started and we had been taking supplements for years. Magnesium controls 1000 of the 1300 enzyme functions. Old science says 300. You can’s get there with other magnesium. You can with ReMag. Taking ReMag saved my life. The MD/ND that invented that has researched minerals for 40 years. She is the other person I trust as much as you. A good place to start is the book she wrote called The Magnesium Miracle. Make sure you get the latest edition. She has written many books and blogs. Her name is Dr Carolyn Dean. There is a lot of her stuff on the internet. A lot is about how minerals must act together in balance to be effective. She and her staff has corresponded a lot with me. I love them. Like you, they never over hype their message.
Again, I apologize if you know about ReMag. I took the time to tell you all this because of the person you obviously are. I realize ICES or higher power PEMF can’t guarantee anything but I am just trying to make the best decision.
Thanks again!
Definitely no disrespect taken. But I do try to be a firm voice when I hear the steady drum of misinformation. The most pervasive of these is the PEMF marketer dysinformation regarding “Gauss” and “frequency”. They play upon the fact that most consumers have no real background in the physics of classical electro-magnetism. My opinion: PEMF definitely does many positive things biologically, but not for the reasons usually put forward by PEMF marketers. In brief: PEMF is a solid reality surrounded by misunderstanding, misrepresentation, and packaged in outright fraud. It is the perfect snake oil for those with low integrity: it actually works (they have no Idea why), they simply need to puff it up with myths and pseudoscience for maximum profit. In the long run, this undermines PEMF among real scientists, and thus this practice harms everyone. PEMF should be safe, efficient, and affordable, not crude and dangerous and outrageously priced.
Pawluk has good intentions, and he and I are friends. But he does tend to get taken in by some of the myths, and I often find myself disagreeing with him on some basic points. This is the difficulty: a crude PEMF system can often be made to work if you just “crank it up!” This is the major clinical error with PEMF: Use a crude one at high power and it will work, sometimes.
This is like building junky cars then putting increasingly larger engines in them to get them to perform adequately.
This strategy can work, but it is expensive and adds potential risk (albeit probably small with PEMF).
But the bottom line is: if the larger systems reliably work for you, and keep you off dialysis, and it is something you can afford, then efficiency and affordability are not as important for you as trying something more efficient and affordable but maybe less effective.
This is the practical reality for you. But in the larger picture, for everyone, it may make a lot more sense to consider PEMF at an earlier stage, with less cost and far more efficiency. And it is really not high Gauss that matters, although low Gauss systems probably can’t actually do the job. This is difficult to explain without resorting to differential equations. So, low-integrity marketers just tell you that you can understand their pseudoscience, then they sell you a crude but powerful system for about 50 times what it should cost in a fair and open market, and in the end what matters is that even crude PEMF works. Without clear options and in the torrent of pseudoscientific noise, people are left with few choices.
But in the end, you should definitely do what works for you. I have made plenty of mistakes myself with PEMF, chief among them being to wait too long before using it. My advice: do what is most likely to work for you.
RE: magnesium: You are definitely correct. I take a formulation that is highly bioavaiable and is also known to cross the blood-brain barrier. I have read the book you suggested, and I now use ReMag as well as other highly bioavailable supplements. I usually do not discuss magnesium much because I do not consider myself an expert on the topic, but I do think it bears discussion because magnesium is so very important and so many people are deficient and don’t have any Idea that a big part of the answer is so easy to fix with a small amount of education.
thanks.
i agree… most manufacturers get away with their mats or high powered devices bc there is nothing in their category to make them compete (much) in pricing.
the high powered machine i have heard more than a few times how quickly certain aches and pains are so quickly resolved (within 15 mins or one session). 
wish i knew the differences if it wasn’t just Gauss behind what they do.
the imrs and bemer (i think) are low powered mats that people also swear by. if we used two c5s and configured coils similarly in a mat, do you know how it would differ to their products? that is definitely one category that could be … “corrected” when we shine some light there.
i haven’t searched enough to see how your products are regarded compared to other pemf devices.
if there were some standard or checklist for people to readily compare against, that might help.
right now I’m doing a budget version of a mat using 2 a9s with a 2x2 array. i like that i can configure and use them for both sleeping on or out and about. seems like 2 a9s with a stitched mat for holding coils is all that’s really needed to be comparable to the low powered pemf devices. all we would need is people to use it regularly as a mat and report back.
have you ever had a chance to evaluate an imrs or bemer or other popular low powered devices? is the main difference the shape of your pulse?
Well, direct comparisons are actually almost impossible. There are huge differences in the basic design of many PEMF systems, and many do not make consistent products, so comparing against one manufacturing batch would not necessarily be the same as comparing against a different batch. But the bottom line is this: the comparison of technical details is probably much less important than the comparison of actual long-term human clinical results.
Unfortunately, this is impossible, because all PEMF marketers will cherry-pick “testimonials”. We have had our ICES-PEMF systems tested independently for humans with various types of pain (https://www.josam.org/josam/article/view/14), but you could always question: “Is this honest, or is it just more marketing?” And since commercial PEMF is generally not approved for pain management, it is almost impossible to study any of the PEMF products anyway.
And this ignores the question: Are different PEMF products good for different clinical problems? I think that remains mostly unknown.
But I have tried to shed some light on this general question. I surveyed a few hundred clinicians about 2 years ago," what approach to the use of PEMF has the best long-term clinical results", and the answers were pretty well divided into three groups:
About 1/3 say the best results occur when you use both ICES-PEMF daily, as well as in-clinic treatments using more powerful PEMF.
About 1/3 say the best results they have seen have been from the use of only ICES-PEMF daily.
And about 1/3 say the best results are from high-powered, in-clinic PEMF systems, without the use of ICES-PEMF.
This pretty well reflects the diversity of clinical applications, clinical outcomes, and human responses in general. However, there is still a bias, because most clinicians in the survey had already committed to one of the three clinical uses of PEMF above, and they will naturally tend to favor their clinical approach (and their financial investment).
Also, I have evaluated IMRS and BEMER products. People have loaned their systems to me, and I have tested them (and several other PEMF products as well) in my laboratory. I can tell you, based on my measurements, the systems do not generate the whole-body fields that they claim. However, many people still report that these systems have been very effective for themselves or their patients. So, I think the problem has been that many forms of PEMF actually work, but no one really knows why, so marketers just make stuff up to try to sound like they are “experts”.
My approach has been very different:
-
I just try to be honest about it. I do not spend money on marketing, and I do not just make up marketing fluff. This is hard science.
-
I have been doing basic research on PEMF for 25 years.
-
I am an actual scientist, not a marketer.
-
I started as a “PEMF skeptic” as a consultant for NASA, but I followed the data, even when I had to change my opinions, which I have done many times.
-
The device needs to work for me, or I can not walk. Period. So I have skin in the game, and it must work or I am in real trouble.
-
I am happy to share my findings with others, but I spend nothing on marketing. My approach is to simply tell the truth, do the science, admit when I don’t know something, keep the claims conservative, keep the prices low, and keep the scumbags away from the marketing.
As a result, if you compare ICES-PEMF with others on the market, the things you may hear will be partly driven by marketers who cannot make money on our products. So, naturally, they are against them.
One very prominent PEMF marketer had tried ICES-PEMF about 8 years ago. He said, many times, that it was the best form of PEMF he had ever tried, period. He said that it clearly was working far better than the competitors, and that it would entirely change the global PEMF market. He made a point of going on and on about it. But when he discovered there was really no money in it for him, it became a serious problem, because I was driving down the average cost of PEMF systems globally by making effective PEMF available for less than $1000. Typical systems at that time were about $15,000 - $25,000. Some were less expensive, but prices for reasonably good systems were very high. He got very angry and verbally abusive about the fact that I was “destroying the market”, and has never said anything positive about ICES-PEMF again.
While I was writing this, I had to turn down, yet again, another marketing offer. I get 4 or 5 every week. I always turn them down. Our products are for people who understand what I am trying to do without a lot of fluff or marketing.
Here is the deal: I am just trying to make PEMF as simple, safe, affordable, and effective as possible. I do no marketing, but I am happy to help people if they can see past the hype and understand who I am and what I am trying to do. I am not trying to make a fortune on this. I do not hire stable of ghost writers to answer questions according to marketing guidelines. I do not have all the answers, but I try to tell the truth, even when it is hard to do so.
2 Likes
Thanks Bob for your time!
@RussF have you considered additionally pulsing your water and drinking it? I had die off staring on day 3 and it took me 3 weeks to work up to drinking all of my water as ICES PEMF structured water. I began to watch many of the Dr. Gerald Pollack videos and read his Fourth Phase of Water book, and I recall him mentioning on an webinar an anecdote about someone with kidney issues drinking structured water and seeing positive results. Obviously, your mileage may vary. In my personal experience, an old injury on my toes is already feeling better and I have more energy and clarity. These improvements could just be in my head, but I am happy with them to continue drinking the ICES PEMF structured water.
Yes, I have thought of PEMF water. I am waiting until my system gets use to all my applications of ICES. I have 2 M1s on 24/7 and a high intensity Sota for a couple of hours. All that gives me very loose stools. Once that settles down I will.
By the way, I presume you just saw the excellent post by @steverhodes1 about his kidney function test results. If not, you might want to read the recent posts on the topic: Can Kidney Disease Be Reversed?
I think that data puts to rest the misguided notion that ultra-high Gauss levels are necessary to “penetrate to the kidneys”.
I have never seen an explanation of the issues of USB chargers/power banks and the sensing technology before. But I have come across it.
I have a Sandisk Sansa player that leaks battery and will go flat eventually if I don’t keep recharging it often. If it’s been flat for too long, only one USB charger will charge it past a few seconds. It’s an old Phillips with a led ring around the surface. With that one I can get it going, and it will work, although of course the battery is half borked.
A powerbank I own will send small pulses of light to a led USB light stick, before either starting full power, or I have to press the button on the power bank to get it started. Another power bank starts the light at full power immediately. I find this kind of thing fascinating…
I have a bunch of USB meters and load testers. Is there something that can be used to test power banks in the store, if you’re allowed to, or do you just bring your machine to the store and test?
I don’t think you can test power banks in the store. Also, for most lithium battery products, they ship and store them only at about 70% to 80% capacity to extend their shelf life (a full charge is a bit tough on lithium batteries).
These products all work differently, so I don’t know of many general rules that apply to the behavior of all of them.
Can you offer the 100 Ohm resisters for sale to connect to a USB?
I think you are asking about adding a 100 Ohm resistor to keep USB battery power banks from turning OFF after a few seconds because the electrical load of our ICES-PEMF devices is below their detection threshold. So, that is how I will answer your question unless you correct me and are more specific.
Installing a 100 Ohm resistor takes skill, and it is not a “product” I can make and sell separately.
I can tell you that these resistors (a slightly different resistor value) have been added with the upgrade to the model C5 and B5 to make them compatible with every battery bank that I have tested. I did not add them to the A9 and especially the M1 so that these devices could remain ultra-low power consumption.
But if you have skill with electronics and soldering, you could make yourself a USB cable (for example, a mini-USB cable for the M1) that has a 100 ohm resistor spliced into the cable wiring to add a load between the +5V power and the Ground line. That will work, and it will only add extra electrical load when you are using the cable with a battery power bank and cable.
My advice: you should only try this if you have the necessary skill.
One more question please, is it as simple as splicing a designated USB extension chord, let’s say, and connecting the wires to the 100 Ohm resister that I’ve seen online? If so, would I attach both of the USB wires to the resister or just one of them? Are the 2 wires not supposed to touch? I would be amenable to MacGyver this myself if I was clear on what to do. Can someone guide me on this? Also can I cut some of the resister wire so it’s shorter since I would want to bandage this nice concoction up with nice tape so it can be used with the P9 in one pocket and the power brick in the other pocket with the usb wire dangling about - so I would not want that long stiff looking wire shown in pics of a resister that I have seen. Can I cut that down a drop? So if there is a stiff area, it is smaller? Thank you!
Ah, ok. I wrote my second question (“one more question please, is it as simple as”) before seeing your reply to my first question. And, yes, I would make a special cable to use when using the battery pack. I have the P9. Loving it! I don’t believe at all that I have the necessary skill but I don’t mind soldering if needed (my dad used to). I was planning to use electrical tape. You mentioned adding the resister to the ground line. How would I know which wire is the ground when looking at my open USB chord? I have often rigged audio speaker wires in the past so I feel semi skilled but not totally. I will probably try other models of power packs before attempting this sort of invasive USB surgery, hehe. Many many thanks!
I can see that you have good intentions, but I think your experience level is low enough that I would worry about the result. You should try to find a friend with electronics experience, because there are a lot of small details that no one can coach you through, you just need someone with the experience to do it.
Without even doing it yet, you have many questions. Once you get into the middle of it, you will have many more. And you will discover that you need a lot more than just a soldering iron: you need a DVM (digital volt meter) and you need to know how to use it, which will be tricky when trying to decode the meaning of the four different wires inside the USB cable. I think you are much better off carrying a few charged 9V batteries if you are using the P9, and changing them every 2 or 3 hours. Then you do not need to deal with USB cables (which will get caught on things and will eventually fail) plus the extra weight of a battery power pack.
But if you really must do this, I suggest you find someone with some level of experience with electronics assembly and testing to help you.
Thank you indeed! Saved me some trouble, I’m sure.
FWIW, there are multiple links on the forum to power banks that work with the A9/ M1.
2 Likes