I only found out about PEMF very recently when an ozone sauna rep tried to upsell hugo with it :). As an integrative medicine clinic we are looking for “outside the box” solutions for chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia and other debilitation conditions failed by conventional medicine. Ideally those solutions should address the issue on cellular/ mitochondrial level. My number one priority is not to harm. My second priority is to achieve the best possible results without loosing my license to practice, so the device should be registered and approved for human use.
Then you probably want to look for a larger, clinical-sized model. I don’t develop or offer PEMF systems like that for several reasons, but generally they are called (incorrectly) “whole body” PEMF systems.
To start looking for one that is approved for human use, and the other things you want, you should peruse the Dr. Pawluk website (drpawluk.com). The site would be a good place to start, but honestly, it is nearly impossible to get solid, truthful information for the kind of PEMF system you want. PEMF marketers will tell you anything they think you want to hear, but the truth is that most modern, commercial PEMF systems have biological benefits. The scientific truth is that we really do not know why they work, but you can hear anything you want to hear.
I think the best thing to do is to talk to colleagues to see what they use, and how it integrates into their clinic. But other than that, most of these larger “whole body” systems are more or less functionally equivalent. About four or 5 of the most common ones are actually identically the same, just differently labeled and manufactured by the same factory in Post-Soviet Eastern Europe.
You might want to start with an affordable one from Pawluk. You can spend anywhere from $5k to $50K, but the more expensive ones are mostly just over-powered and over-marketed. But with any of them you are likely to see the clinical benefits of PEMF, and you can start your PEMF journey from there as you learn how to employ the technology. You will develop a good feel for the type of system that works best for you.
My technical opinion, and brazenly plugging my own technology, I think the best results from the use of PEMF are when you use occasional high-powered clinical PEMF supplemented with daily, personal, wearable PEMF (the technology I have developed and offer) which is much lower power but sustains the effect and is applied focally to problem spots. This seems to work extremely well for chronic pain and injuries, especially among the elderly.
Thank you for your time answering the question.
I was born and brought up in Russia - I wouldn’t touch any technology produced in post-soviet Eastern Europe with a barge pole :).
The problem with asking other medics to share their experience with their devices is a consumer bias. Once they invested a large sum in their device, it will be very difficult for them to admit their disappointment as it would be unethical for them to continue offering the treatment.
I am interested in a professional German bio resonance- type device, which seems to be endorsed by many German doctors and supported by some kind of research (though far from systematic reviews or RCTs:)). I met them on an integrative medicine conference last year. Do you offer private consultancy to look at their technology?
Yes, unfortunately that bias is there, and is difficult to correct for. One strategy is to talk to colleagues who have tried several different systems in their clinic. But that strategy also has its deficiencies.
In reality, when you cut through all the pseudoscience and fraud and bias, all that matters is: does the PEMF system in question actually work? That is a clinical question, and I am not a clinician. No matter how much you pay for me to consult, I can’t really answer that question.
Another option you could try would be to select several systems that have a good trial period and return policy. But the key is that you need to try several, not just one. You need to compare them by measuring clinical outcomes. You need to be aggressive and do this comparison within the return period. Then you could determine for yourself which PEMF system would work best for you in your specific clinical practice.
Thank you for the suggestions.
Unfortunately we are based in the UK and returning machines is not an option for us. My Hocatt shipping price from the US is $1500, returning it back would he quite expensive, hence I am glad I didn’t purchase the one with hugo in it :).
@Natalia, have you considered buying one of @Bob’s ICES PEMF devices (you could start low cost with A9) and trying it yourself and then upon realizing what we have all learned in this forum which is “wow, this really helps improve so many conditions”, you could consider evangelizing it or even selling it for a small markup, say 10% to clients? Just a thought… This could be in lieu of or complement a bigger/ limited time use device that you use for in office sessions.
Of course, I have considered that, but we are looking for a whole body device to use in the clinic as we deal with general health conditions rather than local pain/ sports injuries… But I will keep that in mind
Cool. I have purchased multiple devices for family with a variety of conditions. It has significantly helped them with chronic fatigue and chronic back pain. In my opinion, ICES PEMF, in addition to local effects as you noted, has a non local, systemic, inflammation lowering effect much akin to ultra low dose Naltrexone.
Ah, ok, I didn’t realise that. Bob didn’t mention the system effect of his device, hence I didn’t consider buying it.
Bringing up LDN as a comparison, makes me think that you or your family member definitely had significant systemic inflammation/ autoimmunity as the majority of population wouldn’t even know what LDN is! I am glad they are feeling better and I am very impressed that a small PEMF device could address a systemic condition
The search isn’t the best on this forum, but there are multiple references to the systemic effects of ICES PEMF.
Yes, exactly. Honestly, it is ICES PEMF that taught me what was possible in terms of shifting the state (primarily gut and brain). Of course, we had to remove the underlying sources of copper and mold poisoning and use a multi pronged approach to restoring gut health which does include ICES PEMF. But honestly, ICES PEMF and Ozone (IV, rectal, etc) are my top two tools for my family. My third is HBOT, but I am seeing IV Ozone be more impactful than the HBOT for mold poisoning. Fourth would be red/infrared light and fifth would be Neurovizr. These 5 are on top of the basics of clean air, clean food, and clean water and proper consumption of vitamins and minerals (primarily via food but may possibly also be supported with supplements) and supporting the GI tract to have the necessary absorption.
Additionally if you look at my top 5 in rank order and itemize the price of each, it is utterly astounding to me how effective ICES PEMF is for what is a modest amount (at least for developed nations) in the journey of restoring one’s health (and mind). I am grateful for the sheer excellence, innovation, transparency, and humility that @Bob brings to this world at this critical time of chronic disease and chronic pain. He states his motivation is to help alleviate human suffering, and frankly he has significantly helped do that with my family and we are grateful.
You speak Functional medicine language :). Yes, gut-brain axis is the key.
We do offer Ozone 10 pass and RIs. A Minor Ozone Auto Haemotherapy is also surprisingly effective. We have Sunlighten infrared sauna and I just bought a Hocatt. I’ve never heard of Neurovizr though, you always learn something new!
It looks like Bob prefers to underpromise and overdeliver as he was very modest when he mentioned his PEMF device :). Is this device safe (I know Bob doesn’t like this word :)) for cancer patients?
Ion footbaths get a bad wrap and I didn’t believe they were anything other than snake oil until I experienced a massive herx doing one… Will eventually do a before / after heavy metals test. That could be another service you offer in your practice. Where is your practice? Are you considering buying an EBO2 machine as well?
Yes that is Bob’s MO. I think the better question for @Bob given the legal implications of the word “safe” are to rephrase it as “do you receive any self reported anecdotes about using ICES PEMF when one has cancer?” In fact, if you search in the forum for cancer, you will find posts including from @Bob on this topic.
I am hoping Hocatt will reduce the need for a foot bath. Our ozone machine is suitable for EBOO, but unfortunately the procedure involves a lot of faff and requires 2 good veins, which not many people have. Sometimes we feel lucky to find one, particularly with people after chemotherapy.
We are based in the UK, so we send our patients to Dr Lahodniy in Austria for heavy metal detox, particularly after amalgam fillings removal. He uses Me2ve machine and Iv chelation.
The other place we often refer people to is a microbiota transplant clinic. The results are beyond impressive. Apart from gut dysbiosis cure patients achieve remission of their autoimmune disorders, depression and many other conditions.
Thank you for all the suggestions, I will definitely look at Bob’s device. I hope he might share his anecdotal cases of using it with cancer patients. I will also try to find the previous posts
Very neat! Which microbiota transplant clinic do you refer people to?
Taymount clinic in the UK
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Thanks! Are you familiar with https://www.thaena.com/thaenabiotic as one step before FMT? My practitioner recommended it. From their site, “it is a stool derived whole-biome multibiotic supplement that contains prebiotics, thousands of heat-killed probiotics, and hundreds of distinct postbiotics.”
@Natalia, Regarding the discussion of the federally-regulated word “safe”, @TajD is correct.
Here is the problem:
Quite reasonably, everyone wants to know if a device, drug, or treatment is safe and effective, and if it will specifically cure, treat, diagnose, or prevent an injury or disease. We are all human, and this is what we need to know.
Scumbag charlatans and low-integrity marketers in all areas of health and medicine throughout time have abused these words to defraud the injured, sick, and dying, selling them false hope using these trigger words.
To protect the public from this, many governments have formed administrative agencies imbued with the power to strictly control the use of any or these words when they relate to any form of sale or marketing of anything related to health or medicine.
This is basically a good thing, but the unintended consequence is that it shuts down the few honest voices out there that are trying to get their message through to the greater public.
Most governments, particularly the United States, have decided that the harm to the public by suppressing the very few honest voices in the health and medical space is far preferable to allowing every blank surface in every public space to be filled with false medical claims by the countless fraudulent voices seeking to profit from false hope.
So, any time a person very reasonably wants to know how PEMF relates to any of those federally regulated words, the answer is always the same: we can’t talk about it.
The best way to formulate this type of question is exactly as @TajD suggests:
for example: “Bob, have you ever seen any data or clinical reports to suggest that any form of PEMF causes cancer, makes cancer worse, or in any way promotes tumor formation, neoplasms, metastases, etc.?”
Then I can honestly reply: “No”
I will then go further to say “Not only have I never heard such a report nor seen any data suggesting that PEMF would cause, accelerate, or exacerbate any form of cancer, I have seen data suggesting the opposite, with effects that some times did not reach statistical significance, but suggested nonetheless that PEMF may have a slight but not statistically significant effect of reducing tumorogenesis et al.”
Then, I would go on to give the following scientific opinion: “Further, if anyone, anywhere, were able to demonstrate that any form of PEMF did in fact cause cancer, and if their report had a reasonable level of scientific credibility, then I am certain that federal agencies would sharply snap down on the entire PEMF market. There is no strong lobby in favor of PEMF, so the government could act swiftly and decisively to put a stop to PEMF sales. In addition, you would quickly see thousands of academic scientific papers studying the cancer-causing effects, looking at every aspect of dose, duration, etc. Academics are desperate to find anything that has a repeatable effect on cancer, which would easily get NIH funding.”
I would then conclude by stating: “Because we have never seen anything like this, I think it is reasonable to conclude that there is no reliable evidence, anywhere in the scientific or clinical literature, that PEMF causes or exacerbates cancer.”
Bob, you worry not, I am more than familiar with the rules of the game. You haven’t seen our consent forms :). One American ozone company put on the label of their ozone oil “This product definitely does NOT help with….” and listed all the skin conditions, which ozone oil helps with. We thought it was brilliant marketing, which allowed them to list all the indications for the product and avoid getting in trouble with the regulations.
However, some treatments that stimulates healing can potentially stimulate tumour growth. Some treatments are compatible with cancer (like ozone), and some not (peptides).
As I am not very familiar with PEMF, I just wanted to ask the opinion of people who are up to date with the latest research and have personal/ professional experience of using the device
No, we don’t have this product here. Do you know what country it’s made in?
Also have a look at peptides, particularly BPC 157 for the gut (unless you already have)
Hi Natalia, I believe it’s made in the USA. Thanks for sharing that idea. Yes, we have been using BPC 157 and KPV which has been a little bit helpful, but not transformative the way we expected.